Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[Ben Kenobi]

It's not for you or I to determine the harshness of the punishment or which is more righteous in the eyes of the Lord in this instance.

If this is the case, then whatever penance the Church would have this man do would be sufficient.

Justice would be facing ecclesiastical and secular consequences if one were to be truely repentant of ones crimes after all.

Would you personally consider 3 years imprisonment and sex offender status to be justice? I don't.

In your example the priest has willfully violated the laws of God and those of the secular authorities, why shouldn't a truely penitent man admit what he had done to secular authorities rather than involving his brothers and his Church in an unseemly cover up to hide him and his crimes from the law?

If he were a layperson I would agree that after he confessed to his priest, that he would face the secular consequences. Priests are different. They are already obligated to the Church, and there are plenty of ways to impose penitential discipline on their day to day life. How they did so in this case, I do not know.

[Bosh]

Yeesh why do people still bother responding to BK? It isn't as if he has ever changed his mind about anything. At least stone walls will chip a bit with enough repeated head-bashing.

[Ming]

What exactly does that mean though? Was he still celebrating masses? Was he restricted to work within the diocese, etc? That I don't know.

Why didn't the church turn him over to the authorities since he was a criminal? Why did they shelter this evil person for 30 years? It doesn't really matter what he was doing, he was still a criminal who deserved to be punished, not employed for 30 years as part of a cover up to protect the RC and not the victims.

[rah]

Time for more direct questions to be answered for our continued amusement.

1. Ben are you saying that if a priest murders someone, it's the church and not civil authorities that have jurisdiction?

2. If a priest admits he's gay, that the church wouldn't kick him out, but just reassign him to other duties.

[Ming]

No, I believe that about half of the accusations are true, meaning about 1 percent of the priests have abused children, and need to be rooted out and exposed. I believe that as much as 90 percent of the abuse cases are restricted to America, due to the laxity of certain bishops.

I believe that significant damage has been done by the USCCB in covering up the priests, and that they need to be replaced by bishops from elsewhere, in parishes that haven't suffered from this damage. I believe that the Pope is slowing working on this through his appointments.

Where does that 1 percent figure come from... did you just make that up?

You wanted links... here is one for you.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay/index.html#exec

Why don't you read some real research. This report was commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and was based on surveys completed by the Catholic dioceses in the United States.
So if anything, it would be biased in favor of the RCC.

One percent isn't even in the ball park. The real percentage is far higher than you claim.

[rah]

And ben, to your comment that it's mostly been a problem in the US.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_EUROPE_CHURCH_ABUSE?SITE=WBEZELN&SECTION=POLITICS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Floodgates opened for Irish complaints that have topped 15,000 in this country of 4 million. Three government-ordered investigations have shocked and disgusted the nation, which has footed most of the bill to settle legal claims topping euro1 billion (nearly $1.5 billion).

[Wezil]

We had them here as well. I suspect pretty much every country with catholics has a similar history now.

[Ecofarm]

2. If a priest admits he's gay, that the church wouldn't kick him out, but just reassign him to other duties.

Great point. The church would rather have pedos in their ranks than gay people. How messed up is that?

[Asher]

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/17/catholic.ireland.abuse/index.html

Cardinal apologizes for child abuse 'failures'

The head of the Irish Catholic Church, Cardinal Sean Brady, admitted Wednesday that the church's response to abuse had been "hopelessly inadequate."
"The church must continue to deal with the enormity of the hurt caused by abuse of children by some clergy ... and the hopelessly inadequate response to that abuse in the past," Brady said Wednesday.

Church leaders must "own up to and take responsibility for any mismanagement or cover-up of child abuse," he said.

The cardinal also apologized for his role in the church's investigation into an abusive priest in 1975.
"I want to say to anyone who has been hurt by any failure on my part that I apologize to you with all my heart," he said at St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh, Ireland.

"I also apologize to all those who feel I have let them down. Looking back I am ashamed that I have not always upheld the values that I profess and believe in," Brady said, according to a copy of the remarks released by Ireland's Catholic Communications Office.
Has the Catholic Church reached a tipping point?

The deeply Catholic country has been badly shaken by a government-backed report that found the Archdiocese of Dublin and other Catholic Church authorities in Ireland covered up child abuse by priests from 1975 to 2004. Child sexual abuse was widespread then, the report found.
Pope Benedict XVI said Wednesday he has finished writing his official statement, or pastoral letter, on the child abuse scandal facing the Catholic Church in Ireland.
He will sign the letter Friday and send it "soon after," Benedict told the faithful in an address on St. Patrick's Day.

"My hope is that it will help in the process of repentance, healing and renewal," he said.
Brady has been under fire over the investigation into the Rev. Brendan Smyth, one of the country's most notorious child-abusing priests.
Brady's office said Tuesday the cardinal -- then a priest and teacher with a doctorate in canon law -- had been asked to investigate two complaints against Smyth in 1975 but had no decision-making power. He reported his findings to Bishop Francis McKiernan, his office said, and McKiernan recommended Smyth get psychiatric help.

But John Kelly, founder of Irish Survivors of Child Abuse, said Brady should not have remained silent about what he learned in the course of investigating Smyth, who later was convicted of dozens of counts of child abuse in both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. Smyth died in prison.

"He's basically using the Nuremberg defense -- he was carrying out orders," Kelly said, in reference to the justification many Nazis used in their war crimes trials after World War II.
There has been particular outrage over the revelation that two boys who filed complaints against Smyth were asked to sign confidentiality statements as part of Brady's investigation.
The oaths of secrecy were "to avoid potential collusion" between the two boys as church officials investigated the case, the Catholic Communications Office said this week.
Despite his criticism of Brady, Kelly said it would not necessarily do any good for the cardinal to resign.

"He's lost all moral authority to lead, but by replacing him, it won't resolve the problem," Kelly said, arguing the Vatican would "just replace guys with other guys."
The best solution, he said, would be for the Roman Catholic Church to let secular authorities deal with accusations of abuse, rather than trying to handle them itself.
"They have to accept secular authority, and they can get on with the business of religion," Kelly said. "It would be in the church's own interest. Resignations in themselves aren't the answer."

Four Irish bishops tendered their resignations in the wake of the government-backed report.

The pope has been under fire since it was revealed a priest suspected of abusing children was allowed to move into his diocese when he was Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger in Germany in 1980.
The Archdiocese of Munich and Freising said in a statement Monday it must have been clear at the time that the priest -- whom multiple sources identified to CNN as Peter Hullermann -- was coming to get therapy for allegedly molesting children. He was convicted of abuse in 1986 after Ratzinger moved to Rome. Hullermann was suspended Monday.

Hundreds of allegations of sexual or physical abuse of children by Catholic clergy have come to light in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands this year

[Boris Godunov]

At least we've gotten to the crux of why Ben thinks the RCC did nothing wrong: he believes they are above the law.

Your silly man-made rules and laws are but nothing to us! We spit upon them, ptoooh!

Seriously, anyone who thinks that a priest who molested children shouldn't go to jail for it is sick. Really sick.

[MrFun]

Seriously, anyone who thinks that a priest who molested children shouldn't go to jail for it is sick. Really sick.

QFT

[Ben Kenobi]

Where does that 1 percent figure come from... did you just make that up?

The independent researcher I quoted earlier found that about 2 percent was accused. I'm estimating that half of those accused were innocent.

The total number of priests with allegations of abuse in our survey is 4,392. The percentage of all priests with allegations of sexual abuse is difficult to derive because there is no definitive number of priests who were active between the years of 1950 and 2002.

One, this is only for the US, nowhere else.

Two, again these are allegations.

Three, this is really shoddy research. This number for allegations drops to about 2 percent, when you take into account the attrition ratio over 52 years, ie, the priests who retire, or quit. So yes, the total is about 4392 of allegations, but the number of priests is much higher than the priests in any one year.

[Ben Kenobi]

At least we've gotten to the crux of why Ben thinks the RCC did nothing wrong: he believes they are above the law.

Where did I say that they were above the law? I simply said they are not under the jurisdiction of the US. They are under the Vatican.

I suppose, you believe that everyone who breaks a US law ought to be arrested in in the USA?

[Ben Kenobi]

Why didn't the church turn him over to the authorities since he was a criminal? Why did they shelter this evil person for 30 years? It doesn't really matter what he was doing, he was still a criminal who deserved to be punished, not employed for 30 years as part of a cover up to protect the RC and not the victims.

Why are criminals deported rather than tried in the USA? The priests are not under the jurisdiction of the USA. They are under the Vatican. Secondly, they are priests. Once again, you can't just dump them on the side of the road. They've signed their life away to the Church, and the Church can't just break that contract just because of these allegations. Even if proven, it's the responsibility of the Church to punish them.

You seem to not understand why priests and the laity are different from one another very well Ming.

[Ben Kenobi]

1. Ben are you saying that if a priest murders someone, it's the church and not civil authorities that have jurisdiction?

Yes. You might as well ask what happens if a French diplomat were to kill an American.

2. If a priest admits he's gay, that the church wouldn't kick him out, but just reassign him to other duties.

Yes, they can't just kick him out after he's been ordained. BTW, something like 90 percent of the abuse cases are from homosexual priests abusing boys. This is the major problem that the Catholic church has to deal with, screening these folks out in the seminaries before they become priests.