Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[The Emperor Fabulous]

And yes, I said even if he was a janitor, I would have an issue.

[Asher]

I'm UCC. Our minister is a lesbian. I never was taught that God hated anyone. Does that count?

edit: Ah, I get it.

I was also raised in the UCC.

It's the least vile and most Christian of all Churches. In fact, it's the only Church I have no problem with whatsoever. It's enlightened.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well now it sounds like you don't want to even hold Pedo Priests accountable, just to shuffle them to make sure they aren't around children.

What do you mean they wouldn't be held accountable? What would being held accountable mean to you?

And yes, I said even if he was a janitor, I would have an issue.

I realise that. My question is why. Why would you have an issue with him as a janitor?

[The Emperor Fabulous]

What do you mean they wouldn't be held accountable? What would being held accountable mean to you?



I realise that. My question is why. Why would you have an issue with him as a janitor?

The issue I have here is that these people (and of course, I mean when proven) molested children, yet the organization that knows they molested children, instead of alerting the authorities, hides them and continues to use them in active roles in day-to-day church operations.

Why would you not have an issue with a convicted child molester as part of your organization? Or are you all of the sudden a big "rehab" person when it comes to Catholics?

[Ecofarm]

I was also raised in the UCC...

it's the only Church I have no problem with whatsoever. It's enlightened.

Do you have the slightest clue how typical? You were joking?


It just so happens that the Church who brainwashed me as a kid is the one I have no problem with.


Ok, you were joking and it is funny.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Eco - I don't know about Asher, but before UCC, I was baptized Catholic, took my First Communion, then was brought to Christian Science, followed by Unitarian Universalism, and finally ended at UCC. That's the one that made the most sense to me. Being congregationalist was a choice.

[Ben Kenobi]

The issue I have here is that these people (and of course, I mean when proven) molested children, yet the organization that knows they molested children, instead of alerting the authorities, hides them.

Ok, so you'd rather they be arrested?

Why would you not have an issue with a convicted child molester as part of your organization? Or are you all of the sudden a big "rehab" person when it comes to Catholics?

Couple things here. One, it's a jurisdictional issue. The Vatican tribunals are where this would need to be held. Two, he's still a priest. Regardless of whatever discipline is imposed on him, he cannot be de-ordained. Three, he's apparently a repentent priest, in that he knows that what he did was wrong, and has admitted what he did. This is why he's in therapy. The question then becomes, if this man is repentent in what he did, what is the appropriate discipline? This usually means being restricted to administrative duties, and denied the opportunity as a celebrant, to hold masses, or to consecrate the bread and the wine, etc.

Part of the difficulty seems to be the understanding of sacramentals. Would I want a convicted child molestor as a priest? Obviously not. However, once he is ordained, this is no longer a question. Ordination is not the same as being hired. Ordination means that he will always be a part of the Church.

As for me being a big rehab person, I've always been a rehab person. I've never been in favour of the death penalty. I've always believed that the primary goal of incarceration is rehabilitation.

[Asher]

Do you have the slightest clue how typical? You were joking?


It just so happens that the Church who brainwashed me as a kid is the one I have no problem with.


Ok, you were joking and it is funny.

For the record, I thought it was obvious I'm not at all religious. I attended a UCC church and my parents are members, but I never bought into it.

I just appreciate how the United Church is enlightened.

[Asher]

Regardless of whatever discipline is imposed on him, he cannot be de-ordained.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defrocking

You don't need to be de-ordained. Don't be disingenuous, it's an old story.

[Ben Kenobi]

How does that differ from what I said?

This usually means being restricted to administrative duties, and denied the opportunity as a celebrant, to hold masses, or to consecrate the bread and the wine, etc. \

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Ok, so you'd rather they be arrested?

Priests who molest children? Um............do I really have to give an answer for that that shouldn't already be obvious?

Couple things here. One, it's a jurisdictional issue. The Vatican tribunals are where this would need to be held. Two, he's still a priest. Regardless of whatever discipline is imposed on him, he cannot be de-ordained. Three, he's apparently a repentent priest, in that he knows that what he did was wrong, and has admitted what he did. This is why he's in therapy. The question then becomes, if this man is repentent in what he did, what is the appropriate discipline? This usually means being restricted to administrative duties, and denied the opportunity as a celebrant, to hold masses, or to consecrate the bread and the wine, etc.

As a non-Catholic, full-human, I want him to be given no special treatment because he is part of a specific group. This is the Catholic Church assigning law, which I don't believe it has a right to do when it conflicts with the law of the land. If I touch a child right now, I go to jail. If I become ordained a Catholic priest and then touch a child, in your opinion, I don't.

As for me being a big rehab person, I've always been a rehab person. I've never been in favour of the death penalty. I've always believed that the primary goal of incarceration is rehabilitation.

That's valid.

[Ben Kenobi]

Priests who molest children? Um............do I really have to give an answer for that that shouldn't already be obvious?

As obvious as it is to you, I have to ask.

As a non-Catholic, full-human, I want him to be given no special treatment because he is part of a specific group.

If he's convicted, he's not going to be arrested. The Vatican will deal with him, as they have with others. Think of it like diplomatic immunity.

This is the Catholic Church assigning law, which I don't believe it has a right to do when it conflicts with the law of the land. If I touch a child right now, I go to jail. If I become ordained a Catholic priest and then touch a child, in your opinion, I don't.

No, you don't because you are no longer subject to the law of the land. When you are ordained you are subject to the Pope and the Vatican. The priest in fact has an obligation to ignore laws contrary to the faith. WRT to this example, the Vatican would deal with him, usually by defrocking, which simply means that he cannot exercise the ministerial functions. You might not regard this as 'appropriate discipline,' but if you've given your life to being a priest, then you've basically been cut off of most of what you would ever do as a priest, and are still required to serve the Vatican for the remaining years of your life. Of course, the priest can always leave, in which case, he would be under the secular jurisdiction and would serve time.

[DinoDoc]

Three, he's apparently a repentent priest, in that he knows that what he did was wrong, and has admitted what he did.

To borrow a phrase from Catholic theology, can one be truely repentant if one does not offer penance for thier sins? We're not really talking about taking 5 bucks from the till at work. 5 Hail Mary's doesn't seem like it would cut it in the eyes of the Lord for that sins. How do you truely determine a criminal repentant if he refuses to face the secular consequences of what he did as they have by thier actions violated both the laws of God and Man?

[Ben Kenobi]

How do you truely determine a criminal repentant if he refuses to face the secular consequences of what he did as they have by thier actions violated both the laws of God and Man?

Penance can take many forms. How would you like 30 years of doing the ****ty jobs that no one else wants to do and knowing that you can't very well complain because you brought it on yourself. How would you like being a pariah among your brothers and having them as your only comfort?

Compare this with the current courts who would likely have put the sexual offender out after only 3 years. I daresay the ecclesiastical consequences are far harsher.

[DinoDoc]

It's not for you or I to determine the harshness of the punishment or which is more righteous in the eyes of the Lord in this instance. Justice would be facing ecclesiastical and secular consequences if one were to be truely repentant of ones crimes after all. In your example the priest has willfully violated the laws of God and those of the secular authorities, why shouldn't a truely penitent man admit what he had done to secular authorities rather than involving his brothers and his Church in an unseemly cover up to hide him and his crimes from the law?