The future of India in your opinion [srsly]

[Elok]

Didn't Sikhism start out as a stripped-down, hypertolerant form of monotheism?

Also, now that this thread has for some baffling reason become serious, I read recently in--the Economist?--I think it was, that of all the software engineers India churns out per year, independent testing by an Indian company demonstrated that less than five percent are actually fit to work in a modern company.

[Kontiki]

Also, now that this thread has for some baffling reason become serious, I read recently in--the Economist?--I think it was, that of all the software engineers India churns out per year, independent testing by an Indian company demonstrated that less than five percent are actually fit to work in a modern company.

I'm surprised it's that high. It's not just by some arbitrary decision that people in civilized countries consider a degree from an Indian university to be worth about the same as what you can fish out of the Ganges River.

[Theben]

India will continue to be a ****hole for the majority of its citizens for several decades at minimum. As such, its vast potential will never be realized. The continued caste mentality along with its quasi-democratic system will in the end cause massive social unrest. Its best option is to export all their doctors and cooks and let the rest burn.

[Ben Kenobi]

They've got all the advantages, a democratic political system. Relative peace, increasing prosperity, without any of the negatives.

China has a collapse of their population, is an unfree country, has issues wrt to government funding.
Russia is looking at a similar collapse, but from a somewhat higher position. Something Putin is well aware of and trying to combat, so far unsuccessfully.

Western Europe. For the most part beset by population struggles and aging.

USA. Wealthier than europe. More kids than Europe. Still, they are having their average age increase. Will be interesting to see what path they choose.

Canada. Not enough people, European population issues. Going to be an interesting road to hoe.

Japan. Already facing population collapse and economic stagnation. Harbinger for the rest.

Philippines. Not as well-off as India, but with a modernising economy and enormous population benefits. Will be very influential in the far east on par or exceeding the rest of SE asia.

That leaves us with India. All of the benefits of a growing population, combined with the amazing economies of scale.

[notyoueither]

Canada. Not enough people, European population issues. Going to be an interesting road to hoe.

What would those issues be?

[aneeshm]

I see India as 20 years behind China but finally starting to become a dynamic place instead of an over regulated economic waste land. The truth is if you're in the top echelon then you get a world class education but something like 40% (or more) of the population remains illiterate so it is obvious a very large segment of the population is simply ignored for even basic services.

TBH, I'm not even that optimistic. Even the top echelon does not receive anything close to a truly elite education, due to the complete lack of pedagogical and curricular freedom. Education is often highly specialised starting from the 11th standard, does not build the critical thinking skills I consider essential for a country to prosper, and the entire attitude towards learning is one if excessive specialisation (for the competent) and uncomprehending rote learning (for the incompetent and miscellaneous quota-types) combined with a disturbing lack of curiosity towards everything that is not part of your "field".

Compared to China the infrastructure is a mess but slowly getting better (albeit not as quickly as China is progressing) so there is hope that things will get better though I see them as having more structural problems to over come then China so I don't see them really being a competitor to China any time soon especially since child labor is still wide spread and around 700 million people are forced to live on less then $2 per day. Most of use blow much more then that just on lunch and topping off the gas tank.

Though I agree that we have a larger number of core structural problems to address than China does, the one fundamental problem China faces today - the demographic one - is one I consider potentially far more devastating than all of ours combined. I expect to see the effects of this problem manifesting itself in a decade or two, as the workforce starts to shrink. So it is correct that we won't be competing with China any time soon, in absolute terms, but the comparison is not, I think, as simple as that.

As for the problems of poverty and others, those can only be addressed if the central government is strong enough to destroy the local political interests which keep the economy in a hundred little local minimas. As coalition governments generally aren't capable even of wiping their own arse, much less kicking someone else's, I don't have much hope in this regard.

Further, the expression of the resentment of the underclasses and undercastes in its multifarious nefarious forms, and their wish to either destroy or leech off (but never contribute to) the institutions holding up this country is further grounds for concern. I am not optimistic on this front, either.

[Theben]

and the entire attitude towards learning is one if excessive specialisation (for the competent) and uncomprehending rote learning (for the incompetent and miscellaneous quota-types) combined with a disturbing lack of curiosity towards everything that is not part of your "field".

FWIW that seems to be a problem endemic to Asian countries as a whole, from what I've noticed. While Americans may or may not be as strong as others in their specializations, they tend to have a LOT more knowledge in areas outside of them.

Further, the expression of the resentment of the underclasses and undercastes in its multifarious nefarious forms, and their wish to either destroy or leech off (but never contribute to) the institutions holding up this country is further grounds for concern. I am not optimistic on this front, either.

The sooner they destroy the old institutions, the better off India will be in the long run.

[aneeshm]

Didn't Sikhism start out as a stripped-down, hypertolerant form of monotheism?

Also, now that this thread has for some baffling reason become serious, I read recently in--the Economist?--I think it was, that of all the software engineers India churns out per year, independent testing by an Indian company demonstrated that less than five percent are actually fit to work in a modern company.

My anecdotal experience matches this figure.

[aneeshm]

FWIW that seems to be a problem endemic to Asian countries as a whole, from what I've noticed. While Americans may or may not be as strong as others in their specializations, they tend to have a LOT more knowledge in areas outside of them.

First of all, you have to understand that education is looked upon as a "necessary curse" by most people here. It is a weapon in the "War Against Poverty". The idea that a man can study something because he is actually interested in it is considered an impractical fantasy. Almost all the people I have encountered hate the fact that they're being forced to learn anything. The cost-benefit analysis is something like this:
1) I want money and fancy toys.
2) To pay for money and fancy toys, I need a good job.
3) I can pay for a good job by getting a degree.
4) What does a degree cost? Money and studies.

The cost-benefit analysis, therefore, suggests that as studies are "payment" for that nice slip of paper at the end, you are better off if you manage to get the maximum marks while studying and knowing the least, as that way, you've "paid" the least. The easiest way to do this is rote learning. (Ideally, this should not work, but as those who constitute the education system are also from such a background, they do not have the capacity to set papers capable of actually testing students; remember that most of them are rejects from industry.)

In my conversation with friends who have gone on to study in much more prestigious institutions, such as the IITs, I have learnt that there isn't much of a difference in attitudes even among the people attending such institutes. They are more competent, of course, but that's it. The difference, in a sense, is one of quantity, not quality. I find this extremely saddening, as this is an atrocity against the country's most talented people, with the greatest potential.

One such schoolmate of mine, who is now competing his integrated M.Tech. from the IIT Mumbai, told me that he is one of the few (five or six) people there who is actually interested in what he is studying. Most of the rest do not even want to continue in the technical disciplines, and would rather immediately do an MBA to get out of actually having to do any engineering work.

The problem is also greatly political. Any education reform which brings in real standards will mean that the underclasses or undercastes, who have got in solely on the basis of caste quotas, shall start to fail in massive numbers. As this is a politically undesirable outcome, educational reform will never happen.

The sooner they destroy the old institutions, the better off India will be in the long run.

I do not think that the destruction of the courts, universities, civil service, and democratic political system shall be beneficial to the country. In case I was not clear, those are the institutions to which I referred in the original post.

As of the moment, the private sector is still a little haven of non-politicised normalcy and competence. It is also the only sector where the competence of a person, and not his caste, is the determinant of how he is judged. I am not optimistic in this regard, either; I expect the resentment I mentioned to express itself by forcing the imposition of a quota-like reservation system upon the private sector, at which point I expect the country shall be effectively finished.

[Dinner]

One such schoolmate of mine, who is now competing his integrated M.Tech. from the IIT Mumbai, told me that he is one of the few (five or six) people there who is actually interested in what he is studying. Most of the rest do not even want to continue in the technical disciplines, and would rather immediately do an MBA to get out of actually having to do any engineering work.tion system upon the private sector, at which point I expect the country shall be effectively finished.

A very good friend of mine (we lived together for two years in college and then he got a job in the city I'm from so he ended up renting a house a block away from me before moving on for career reasons) is Sikh and born in India but lived in the US for most of his teenage years on as his parents relocated the family to the US. He studied very hard to become an electrical engineer (getting his 4 year degree from UCSB and then his master's from UCLA) but after just three years of actually working as an engineer he had to admit he hated it, had always hated it, but that because he grew up very poor (his father is legally blind so he cannot work so his mother had to support the family on a nurse's salary) he was under a lot of pressure to make as much money as possible to help support the family including relatives back in India. He eventually got an MBA from Northwestern (an excellent top school in the US) because he desperately wanted to get out of the engineering field he spent six years of his life studying but hated.