OMG We have a martyr

[MOBIUS]

Oh god, BK has found another victim!

Give it up, Dry, you're only going to waste your time - BK is a total **** who isn't worth it.

[DinoDoc]

Yep, same one.

Then I don't understand his point as it seems that the RCC did stake out an official position and in fact did what they could against the Nazi Regime.

[Wezil]

Sure, they were awesome humanitarians.

[DinoDoc]

Ignorant Bigotry FTW.

Do you have anything meaningful to post?

[Wezil]

Do you have anything meaningful to post?

At Poly? No sorry.

I'm done arguing the absurd here. It's all point and laugh now.

[MOBIUS]

Is this the same Catholic Church that issued a Papal encyclical written in German instead of the usual Latin condemning the Nazi regime? Hell are we even talking about the same Pope who told Belgian pilgrims in 1938, "Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we [Christians] are all Semites?" Are we also talking about the same Catholic Church that suffered well documented retaliations against it from the Nazi regime?

That encyclical was fairly weak and watered down in its direct condemnation of the Nazi regime. Indeed, the main thing it attacks is that the Nazis are a bunch of Pagans...

Your 1938 reference is all well and good, except for the fact that that particular Pope died before the start of the war, and that Pius XII was, shall we say, extremely accommodating to the Nazi regime...

Interestingly, one of the Nazi retaliations was to expose Catholic priests for 'corrupting youth' - that quite a recurring theme for the Church, that.

In fact, irony of ironies, the Nazis' main tactic Vs. the Catholic church was basically to try to expose them as criminals.

So no, the Catholic church kept its head down, looked after No.1, and in the main part, was silent to the vast majority of atrocities undertaken by the Nazis that it became aware of.

[Dry]

Then I don't understand his point as it seems that the RCC did stake out an official position and in fact did what they could against the Nazi Regime.

Collaboration is one of my points.
Shifting morality is another one. Standing against in words in 37, standing in action alongside in 40 (Vichy, petainism). When Germany went against secularism in France, and then against Bolchevism, all of a sudden, they weren't that bad after all.
"If We had remained victorious, we would probably have remained the prisoners of our errors. Through being secularized, France was in danger of death."
Cardinal Gerlier, Archbishop of Lyon

[dannubis]

Interestingly enough, the Catholics were one of the solid folks against Hitler. Socialists were for the most part fellow travellers. What you assert here has no bearing. Having an outside source as a reference for morality seems to make you more, not less resistant to propaganda. Propaganda is more effective where moral relativism is cultivated.

In fact, it is to cry...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

So while his hands were tied, Pius was in a very grey zone wrt the holocaust, very grey...

[DinoDoc]

Collaboration is one of my points.
Shifting morality is another one. Standing against in words in 37, standing in action alongside in 40 (Vichy, petainism).

But the RCC's actions and statements continued throughout the time period and question. Even during the time of Pius XII. Could they have done more? Probably. Could they have done more without putting Catholics at risk given the fact the regime saw the Church as an undeclared enemy? Unknown but I would suggest otherwise.

[MOBIUS]

Again the Catholic church's actions and statements during this time were tepid at best, at a time when they were actively aiding and abetting Nazi sanctioned governments such as the Vichy in France and the Ustaša regime in Croatia (the latter they actually had blood on their hands and attempted to cover this up!).

As for doing more, that as the dominant religion of the region was their moral obligation as a minimum - assuming they actually cared that much what the Nazis were doing!

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course, even in Vichy, they saved the lives of over 220 thousand Jewish people.

[Dry]

Why would I need Goebbels, when I have Christ?

You need Christ or you need the pope?

If you need Christ (or God), then you need the Bible (or God's word), if you need the Bible, then you need to understand it, to interpret its message. You need a tool, like critical thinking to understand when you have to take it literally (Don't kill) and when you need to take it a little more loosely (Stoning you child to death if he rebels against you).
The decision: "Don't kill means what is says, and stone your son is to be taken in a symbolic sense" is yours, entirely yours.

What is your tool to find your way in Jesus teachings?

Do you rely only on yourself? On your experience and knowledge?
On the church, the pope?

Saying you have Christ as guide, is not enough. Which Christ? How to you interpret more cryptic passages of his teaching? Sell all your goods, give them to the poor and follow me. Have you done that? Why not? Jesus teaching, no? Is it a loose wish? A strict order?
If you say 'it is not to me to tell', then your guide becomes someone else than Christ. And your door is open to any other human 'guidance' that looks nice.
If on the opposite say 'it is no one else than me to say', then you close the door to any other such guide, great leader, fuhrer, conducator, helmsman, caudillo.

[Ben Kenobi]

You need Christ or you need the pope?

I believe the Pope is his Vicar, so there is no distinction when he speaks from his seat.

If you need Christ (or God), then you need the Bible (or God's word), if you need the Bible, then you need to understand it, to interpret its message. You need a tool, like critical thinking to understand when you have to take it literally (Don't kill) and when you need to take it a little more loosely (Stoning you child to death if he rebels against you).

Agreed. This is why the Magisterium is necessary because it helps you to form an informed conscience, by assistance from those who have greater understanding of the text.

What is your tool to find your way in Jesus teachings?

Two things. One, my own interpretation and understanding, experience and knowledge, and two on the magisterium of the Catholic church. If one or the other differ, then it has been my experience that I need to read up on the issue.

This hasn't been a sudden process, but the majority went on before I converted with respect to essential teachings. There are still many things I have to learn and I am still learning.

[Kidlicious]

You are dangerous, because having to rely on external guidance for moral decision, you are prone to be victim of propaganda.

If you don't rely on external guidance for moral decisions your decisions will be selfish.

[Kidlicious]

Saying you have Christ as guide, is not enough. Which Christ? How to you interpret more cryptic passages of his teaching? Sell all your goods, give them to the poor and follow me. Have you done that? Why not?

If you read more of his teachings you'll realize that not everyone is called to follow Christ in the exact same way that the 12 disciples did.