My Lai Tip of the Iceberg

[Patroklos]

Again, that is no different than what happens now. And you are not being entirely truthful about the Vietnam era either. Most if not all infanty went through an advanced course before being delivered to their units and any rate with a specialty (engineer, comms, artillery) most certainly had an "A-school" or whatever you call it in the army.

It should also be noted that you are pretending all of the US Army was in Vietnam when in fact not even the majority of it was there. Most recruits went to units stateside (or in Europe) where they would have many months of OJT before they rotated to Vietnam.

[Arrian]

I'll take "question his patriotism" for 500, Alex. The default Zaku response to any criticism of those parts of America he likes (the bits he doesn't like are, of course, UnAmerican).

That's weak sauce, man. You can't defend the action itself. You can't defend the military's choice to lie about it. Both have been documented. So all you've got left is to rant about what a bad American I am for being skeptical of the pronouncements of the same organization in the here and now. I'm unimpressed.

In case you actually don't get it, I'm not ripping on soldiers who were drafted and sent to Vietnam, or soldiers who are serving today in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm ripping on the REMFs, I believe the term is, who chose to cover up incidents such as these - which necessarily requires lying to the American people. Seems to me that's rather "unAmerican."

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

I'm ripping on the REMFs, I believe the term is, who chose to cover up incidents such as these - which necessarily requires lying to the American people. Seems to me that's rather "unAmerican."

That is a very insulting term, and not one that is appropriate for your purposes anyway.

[zakubandit]

Thank you Patro, your right and hes wrong.

I can say something but it never makes any difference to any civilians, and people have been saying it for years.

There are just some things that civilians do not NEED to know.

I do not condone such actions as were taken in Vietnam, I don't even to pretend to fully understand them. But what I do understand is that in every war in ever century man has committed atrocious acts against man. I understand that war does horrible things to a man's psych. I understand that civilians believe they are justified to have all the answers to what is going on in a war. What I do not understand is why civilians want to know some things. Do you really need to know that in order to save NYC from a nuke attack a CIA agent had to kill an innocent child? Do you really need to know that in order to impede an enemy assault on allied positions a LT had to order his men to execute 4 enemies? Do you really need to know if US agents are undercover in Venezuela to ensure Chavez doesn't make due on his threats at America? Or Iran? Or North Korea? Etc. If something like what Tarentino did happen in WWII would you still judge those Jewish warriors? They were horrible to Nazi's and they brutally killed Hitler....do you need to know just how the war was won? Do you need to know the atrocities that need to be committed to save lives sometimes? Or would you much rather know things that honestly civilians should never know, just to have peace of mind, disgust at your own troops, disgust at your government, or we could just release everything, never commit evil for good and just let terrorists do whatever they want and kill all of America.

Understand that, our enemies are enemies...not friends...they are evil and do evil things and contrary to literature sometimes good men must do evil things in the face of evil.

[DaShi]

You're an idiot.

[Ben Kenobi]

Maybe Zaku is MtG's dl.

[Ming]

Maybe Zaku is MtG's dl.

Don't insult MtG like that... He opinion would be "Shoot em all and let god sort out the bad guys"

[zakubandit]

do i need to beat the dead horse? I mentioned before, walking in anothers shoes, wearing a uniform and such. Like for example I wouldn't be one to judge why a biologist hide a thing he created that could kill millions....he did it for a reason, dont need to know why i dont even need to know it exists. If i found out the government had been the ones harboring illegals for their own gain i would surely turn against them....as Arrian said he doesnt trust our current forces.

You civilians do not need to know everything. Torture for example, gets information. Do we need to know it goes on? No. Should it, not if we are gonna hear about it, but if it saves more lives then yes, do it. cut off a fu.cking arm if you have to, as long as innocent people live and an evil man dies, that is all i need to sleep good at night. ignorance is bliss in certain occasions, and in war, counter terrorism, and interogation....ignorance is necessary.

[Solomwi]

...What I do not understand is why civilians want to know some things. Do you really need to know that in order to save NYC from a nuke attack a CIA agent had to kill an innocent child? Do you really need to know that in order to impede an enemy assault on allied positions a LT had to order his men to execute 4 enemies? Do you really need to know if US agents are undercover in Venezuela to ensure Chavez doesn't make due on his threats at America? Or Iran? Or North Korea? Etc...

Because you're doing those things on behalf of those civilians. When somebody acts in my name, I damn well want to know what he's doing.

[zakubandit]

You want to know that Agent 0 saved your sorry ass from nuclear hell fire by killing 15 radical Muslim terrorists in bum****, desert town Mid East? You want to know how he had to cut the fingers off one of them to get him to talk? You want to know all of this was done to keep you alive....just so you can then ridicule him, talk down to him, making HIM out to be the bad guy and put him on trial, when all he did was kept you safe?

Sure My Lai was not for those reasons, but the fact and point I am trying to get across is that sometimes there is stuff civilians do not need to know. Honestly though, unless any of us was there in Vietnam with these guys we shouldn't even speculate what was going through their heads...that was not a war that brought home any good memories. So just let it go, they did what they did and let it go, that war was all around evil and too many people were wrong, too many people did wrong things....hell by contrast the VC and Chinese beat the hell out of the bad things department.

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't insult MtG like that... He opinion would be "Shoot em all and let god sort out the bad guys"

True, but this would be his way of having a huge joke played on all of us.

[Solomwi]

You want to know that Agent 0 saved your sorry ass from nuclear hell fire by killing 15 radical Muslim terrorists in bum****, desert town Mid East? You want to know how he had to cut the fingers off one of them to get him to talk? You want to know all of this was done to keep you alive....just so you can then ridicule him, talk down to him, making HIM out to be the bad guy and put him on trial, when all he did was kept you safe?

Yeah, I do. Even granting the ridiculous notion that every barbaric act committed by an American soldier has a positive impact on my safety, I don't value that safety highly enough to turn a blind eye when those who secure it cross the line. By definition, keeping me safe wasn't all he did.

[DaShi]

It seems zaku got drummed out of the military as well. No wonder he has a hard time competing with immigrants who can't even speak English.

[Straybow]

War is hell. During the French and Indian war young Major George Washington interrogated a Frenchman using a heated blade and allowed an allied Indian to kill a French officer named Jamonville. There is some doubt whether he realized what the Indian was going to do, and whether Washington could have stopped him, but there is no debate that Washington did nothing beyond a verbal chastisement in response.

The French response was to take after him in the field. At what is now called the battle of Jamonville a much larger French force assaulted the colonial position but took such losses that the French commander accepted a deal for both sides to withdraw to friendly territory. The incident was also brought up in peace negotiations at Versailles, but no action was taken against Washington at that time.

A few didn't want him in command of the revolutionary army, and probably made noises about it when he was running for President.

[zakubandit]

Ok so Solom lets have a scenario, we all know i love these....

You are handed a gun, you are told that of 2 strangers in a hut in front of you 1 of them must die. If they don't die millions of Americans will die. If you don't kill one of them then you know you will be responsible for millions of people's deaths. What do you do? Do you say no and end America? Do you kill yourself, in turn America as well? Do you kill a stranger who's life depends on millions? What do you do?

I know, never happen scenario right? Kind of. Every day there are operations going on somewhere in the world that save lives. I don't want to know about them, I don't want to know WHO is doing the killing. All I want to know is that my government is doing everything it can to ensure millions of innocent lives are not extinguished because some liberal wanted to make sure that these operations don't hurt anyone. We live in a real world with real evil. Safely tucked away in your home in the states, far from any war, far from ever being shot at in anger you have never first hand, in front of you seen how evil man can be. I have seen blind faith lead people to blow themselves to pieces just to injure a dozen. I have seen complete rage save a single life at the expense of the enemies lives. Remember that word, ENEMY. Not friend. Not colleague. Not ally. ENEMY.

Terrorists are first and foremost our enemies. They have a resolve, death to all infidels. That is it. So unless you are a devote Muslim who is willing to accept their resolve you should be, at the least, understanding that things happen to save lives.

You are trying to skew this into your own personal want and need to know everything that goes on. You personally want to know, then go be the one saving lives. You want to have a country to raise a family in, a population to live in that country, and a population free from fear of imminent death from some foreign enemy then understand that there are things that need to happen.....

and remember this, evil men triumph when good man do nothing. And sometimes good men must do evil things to triumph over evil men.


And Stray, perfect example of a good man doing an evil thing for the greater good.