[serious] Off Topic Moderation Input - Part 2

[Jon Miller]

Well. We disagree then.

I think calling someone stupid when you disagree with their beliefs whether it be religion or economic theory or whether archery is accurate at long range is not really very bad at all, saying that someone is somehow 'wrong'/'worse' because of some genetic issue they have no control over whether it be sexuality, disability, gender or race is extremely bad and certainly much worse than the first example.

In both cases you are saying that someone is 'worse' due to some issue (being stupid (as demonstrated by believing in religion) or being gay/black/female/etc). Except that Christians are not saying that homosexuals are 'worse' due to some issue... (I recognize that some do, but if you take just the position that homosexual activity is a sin or that homosexuality is sinful, it is not).

And I still don't think that the non-Christians of the forum/life understand what 'something' being a sin is. While it is 'worse than ideal' it doesn't mean 'you are a worse person than other people/don't deserve to live/etc/etc/etc'.

You pretty much think that (almost) all Christians are extremely bad, which seems 'worse' to me than thinking that all homosexuals are sinful due to homosexuality. Which is not the same thing as saying that all homosexuals are extremely bad relative to other people.

JM

[MikeH]

In both cases you are saying that someone is 'worse' due to some issue (being stupid (as demonstrated by believing in religion) or being gay/black/female/etc). Except that Christians are not saying that homosexuals are 'worse' due to some issue... (I recognize that some do, but if you take just the position that homosexual activity is a sin or that homosexuality is sinful, it is not).

And I still don't think that the non-Christians of the forum/life understand what 'something' being a sin is. While it is 'worse than ideal' it doesn't mean 'you are a worse person than other people/don't deserve to live/etc/etc/etc'.

Worse than ideal, cannot be ideal? However you want to phrase it it still means worse. There's no way you can expect to say that something being sinful doesn't imply somehow that it's wrong, sub-optimal, less good. I don't care what the religious book or doctrine says, it's wrong and people need to be saying it's wrong and saying to their religious leaders that it's time to update the messages.

You pretty much think that (almost) all Christians are extremely bad, which seems 'worse' to me than thinking that all homosexuals are sinful due to homosexuality. Which is not the same thing as saying that all homosexuals are extremely bad relative to other people.

No I don't. I think that some members of some branches of Christianity (and most other religions) hold extremely damaging and outdated beliefs and that we shouldn't have to fake some kind of respect for peoples outdated and damaging beliefs just because they come from their religion.

Other branches of Christianity, and some Christians in other branches, are totally fine. They have sensible views on the big religious hot topics like homosexuality, birth control, evolution.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality, it's completely normal and we need to be out there saying that and strongly supporting gay members of society who are still victims of persecution.

If I felt banning people because of their views was acceptable I'd have banned Ben long ago. His views are absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable in modern society. But I've said that enough times here.

[MikeH]

I also can't see how anyone can objectively look at the evidence of religious history and scientific evidence and conclude there's any validity to the major religions stories, but that's another subject.

[MikeH]

And I know not all Christians are saying that homosexuality is wrong, but there are definitely some very vocal ones who are.

[Jon Miller]

Worse than ideal, cannot be ideal? However you want to phrase it it still means worse. There's no way you can expect to say that something being sinful doesn't imply somehow that it's wrong, sub-optimal, less good. I don't care what the religious book or doctrine says, it's wrong and people need to be saying it's wrong and saying to their religious leaders that it's time to update the messages.

You miss one of the central underpinnings of Christianity.

Everyone is worse than ideal.

This was my point about nonChristians not understanding 'sin'. Christians think that a large portion of the non-religious are like alcoholics who do not recognize their addiction. Well, some recognize it but approach it with a humanist approach (and non-Christian religions recognize it after a fashion and have a non-grace based approach). Yes, obviously the alcoholics/sinners say 'no, you are insulting me, I have everything under control'. It is natural to feel that way. And just because Christians recognize their addiction does not mean they are free of it or have even made progress against it, it just is the first (required) step. And many Christians don't recognize their addiction.

Just because something is completely 'normal' does not mean it is 'ideal'. I think that most Christians who think that homosexuality is a sin would also agree (if they thought about it) that that meant homosexuality was completely normal.

So yes, it still means worse. But it doesn't mean 'worse than the Christian' or 'worse than other people'.

Unlike what many non-religious think of the religious, where they think of them as 'worse than other people'.

Persecuting homosexuals is wrong, and homosexuals do need support. Just like everyone else. Because they are normal.

JM

[Nikolai]

The problem with Ben and this forum with respect to homosexuality was/is not what he thinks, but how he expresses it.

Thinking that homosexuality is a sin/etc is not banworthy/etc on this forum. It is even less an assault on homosexuals, than those who think that theists are misguided/irrational/stupid/etc is an assault on theists.

What is not OK on this forum is attacking homosexuals (or other groups) repeatedly. If you think something, and can't express it without attacking a group, then don't express it.

JM
(Well, the problem with the forum moderators and I do recognize that Ben's thoughts are not even just 'traditional' Christian thoughts but special.)

Saying and thinking homosexuality is a sin and against God's will should not be a bannable offense. Denouncing someone as devil's spawn or somesuch for being it, should. Or at least be punishable in some way. I believe in the Bible, which tells me homosexual practice is a sin and against God's will. The same Bible tells me that while I should stand to my beliefs, I should also treat all people with love and respect, no matter what they are or have done. It tells me my sins, which are many, are as bad as the sin of homosexual practice, and that I am no better than anyone else, but that God has grace for me, as well as them. So it is a dualty. I will and have to stand for what I believe is right, and I have to act out my beliefs in a way that does not denounce someone as evil, since I am no better. If that is not allowed, we are in serious trouble.

[MikeH]

You miss one of the central underpinnings of Christianity.

Everyone is worse than ideal.

This was my point about nonChristians not understanding 'sin'. Christians think that a large portion of the non-religious are like alcoholics who do not recognize their addiction. Well, some recognize it but approach it with a humanist approach (and non-Christian religions recognize it after a fashion and have a non-grace based approach). Yes, obviously the alcoholics/sinners say 'no, you are insulting me, I have everything under control'. It is natural to feel that way. And just because Christians recognize their addiction does not mean they are free of it or have even made progress against it, it just is the first (required) step. And many Christians don't recognize their addiction.

Just because something is completely 'normal' does not mean it is 'ideal'. I think that most Christians who think that homosexuality is a sin would also agree (if they thought about it) that that meant homosexuality was completely normal.

So yes, it still means worse. But it doesn't mean 'worse than the Christian' or 'worse than other people'.

Your views aren't the same as Ben's

In that case, Christians should have absolutely no special treatment for homosexuals. If they went around saying "homosexuality is just as wrong as everything else" I wouldn't have a problem with that. That's not what people are saying.

Unlike what many non-religious think of the religious, where they think of them as 'worse than other people'.

Persecuting homosexuals is wrong, and homosexuals do need support. Just like everyone else. Because they are normal.

JM

Some non-religious think of the religious as 'worse than other people, some religious think of homosexuals as 'worse than other people'. Both those sets of people are wrong.

Oh yeah, and some religious think of non-religious as 'worse than religious people'.

They are wrong too.

[Jon Miller]

Take another example.

Open marriage.

I think that open marriage is harmful and unhealthy (and sinful). I am open about my beliefs, and have posted them before (and will again).

I do not make every thread about open marriage, I do not continually make threads about it. I do not respond and counter every proponent of open marriage. I do not vilify or attack those who practice open marriage (or even dislike, in fact, my best friend was in an open relationship).

You get my point.

JM

[MikeH]

Saying and thinking homosexuality is a sin and against God's will should not be a bannable offense. Denouncing someone as devil's spawn or somesuch for being it, should. Or at least be punishable in some way. I believe in the Bible, which tells me homosexual practice is a sin and against God's will. The same Bible tells me that while I should stand to my beliefs, I should also treat all people with love and respect, no matter what they are or have done. It tells me my sins, which are many, are as bad as the sin of homosexual practice, and that I am no better than anyone else, but that God has grace for me, as well as them. So it is a dualty. I will and have to stand for what I believe is right, and I have to act out my beliefs in a way that does not denounce someone as evil, since I am no better. If that is not allowed, we are in serious trouble.

That isn't a bannable offence, that isn't what Ben was banned for.

If it was, he'd have been banned a long time ago.

[MikeH]

Take another example.

Open marriage.

I think that open marriage is harmful and unhealthy (and sinful). I am open about my beliefs, and have posted them before (and will again).

I do not make every thread about open marriage, I do not continually make threads about it. I do not respond and counter every proponent of open marriage. I do not vilify or attack those who practice open marriage (or even dislike, in fact, my best friend was in an open relationship).

You get my point.

JM

Exactly.

[Jon Miller]

Your views aren't the same as Ben's

Oh most definitely. Ben's are terrible.

In that case, Christians should have absolutely no special treatment for homosexuals. If they went around saying "homosexuality is just as wrong as everything else" I wouldn't have a problem with that. That's not what people are saying.

I agree. I think the issue is that Christians do the same thing as others (trying to excuse their addiction).

Sort of how a crack addict says 'I am addicted to crack, but at least I am not addicted to heroin'.

Oh yeah, and some religious think of non-religious as 'worse than religious people'.

They are wrong too.

Yes.

JM
(My views are not at all Ben's.)

[MikeH]

Ben has certainly inspired some anti-religious rants from me that were much more broadly targeted than they should have been.

[Aeson]

Can we ban the people spamming up this thread with theological threadjacks? This is a [serious] thread

[The Mad Monk]

I would like to request that you change dfg's current, offensively worded sig to the lyrics of "I'm a little teapot", and lock it.

Totally [serious].

[Docfeelgood]

I would like to request that you change dfg's current, offensively worded sig to the lyrics of "I'm a little teapot", and lock it.

Totally [serious].

Keep dreaming!

Totally [serious]