Lord, liar, lunatic, legend?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ben, Jon is a great example of a Christian with his head screwed on. Taking his faith on his own terms, not taking everything literally but as I think it was meant, as kind of a spiritual guide within the context of the modern world.

If everyone religious was like him, and actually I think the vast majority of Christians are, at least in the UK, most people wouldn't have a problem with it. Christianity is about love, tolerance and forgiveness. All very laudible. In fact, when taken like that and ignoring all the Old Testament nonsense only the God part is really contentious.

People tend to really like those Christians who are about love and tolerance. They enjoy being around them and that sort of spirit is infectuous. I can see why people would want to be part of a religion like that when I see and hang around those type of Christians because they seem to be incredibly good people.

[Ming]

People tend to really like those Christians who are about love and tolerance. They enjoy being around them and that sort of spirit is infectuous. I can see why people would want to be part of a religion like that when I see and hang around those type of Christians because they seem to be incredibly good people.

On the other hand, there are those christians who have no clue what tolerance or love of others really means... They think they are Christians, but in reality, they are walking advertisements for everything that is wrong with organized religions.

[chequita guevara]

If that's what you believe, I'll respect it

I believe you should give me a few thousand dollars.

[Jon Miller]

Thanks, although I am unfortunately a hypocrite at times as well. For example, while I give some, I spend a lot of money on food.

And I also share many of the frustations with organized religion. I am pretty sympathetic to Christian anarchism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kin..._Is_Within_You . However, it is easier to be part of a group than by yourself.

JM

[rah]

I believe you should give me a few thousand dollars.

Typical commie, always the sense of entitlement.

[Ben Kenobi]

However, it is easier to be part of a group than by yourself

Strange comment. You don't seem to find it easier to be in a group, so why would you assume most other people do?

Most people hate being in a group and would prefer not to be in one.

[Elok]

What on earth makes you think I believe in modernity, let alone post-modernism?

He's quite aware that you don't...that's sort of his point. I'm not sure where postmodernism comes into this, though. I imagine you have your own wacky definition of the word.

[Nikolai]

[action=Nikolai]hopes he is counted as those good examples of Christians.[/action]

Seriously, I believe in absolute truths, but I'm at least trying to be humble about it. I don't claim to understand everything, that's hopefully a start.

[Sava]

I don't claim to understand everything, that's hopefully a start.

[Sirotnikov]

That has always been the case, though. Everyone has their own 'personal truth'.

not everyone claims it to be objective.

you don't. some do.

The issue with scientific truths is that they are based on a philosophical background which is very common in some parts of the community of humanity (but less common than you would think... I am refering to post modernists, but there are also quite a number of people who just don't bother to understand the philosophy that science is based on and so don't have that shared philosophical background).

while i haven't taken an official course, i took some philosophy classes from a professor that teaches that issue exactly, so i hope my understanding is above average.

i still haven't found anything to convince me there is utility in philosophies which reject empiricist methods, and which deny the existence of a common ground which can be called 'objective truth' for the lack of a better word.

i am aware of other philosophies. i dislike them. you can babble yourself away to end up with absolutely no common ground with any other living being, and being unable to say anything about anything else.

I find science and scientific thought much more useful.

[rah]

Much better than those that think they know everything and refuse to listen. Lord knows I've met many of them.

[BlackCat]

Most people hate being in a group and would prefer not to be in one.

No offense Ben, but I take this as proof that you aren't human. Guess that you are a fugitive from Area 51.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I've always had my doubts that Ben is a human.

[Ben Kenobi]

i still haven't found anything to convince me there is utility in philosophies which reject empiricist methods, and which deny the existence of a common ground which can be called 'objective truth' for the lack of a better word.

Empiricism is a fine philosophy, but it has limitations. Anything that cannot be tested in an empirical matter is not false, empiricism simple says nothing about it.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not sure where postmodernism comes into this, though. I imagine you have your own wacky definition of the word.

Modernism:

Human nature is perfectible. The perfect society will produce the perfect people. Education is an essential tool by which society can mould people to be better then their forerunners.

Evolution is constantly occurring and man is at the pinnacle. The idea of infinite and inevitable progress.

The material world is all that exists. We can obtain perfect knowledge about nature, if we just work hard and long enough. The world is in all essence rational. There are universal truths which may be discovered.

It's the domininant philosophy from about 1840 to about 1914.

Post-Modernism.

Human nature is fatally flawed. Society cannot produce perfect people. There are no universal truths, subjective experience is more important then knowledge. Education is a tool of social control. We cannot obtain perfect knowledge about nature. Man is by his nature a beast, and this cannot be changed. The world is essentially irrational. The material world is all that exists.

Domininant philosophy from 1914 onwards.

My beliefs:

Human nature is fatally flawed. Society cannot produce perfect people. There are universal truths. We can obtain reliable knowledge about nature, although I do not believe we can obtain all knowledge available through empirical means. Education is how knowledge can be distributed and preserved for future generations. Man is by nature a beast, but can overcome his natural impulses. The world is essentially irrational. There exists a material and a spiritual world.