Healthcare Reform Thread II

[Drake Tungsten]

I'd be happy if Obama would propose serious healthcare reform.

[MrFun]

OMG! Do you realize that you have replied to a post of mine without a single insult toward me?

[Kidlicious]

No you are advocating the eliminaton of free will.

That was not my intention. We must have a different idea of what free will is. But you said that's why we have seperation of church and state, which implies that we have the same idea of what that means. It does not mean to me that christians are to leave there principles outside of the voting booth.

My particular faith states that individuals are accountable to the teaching and moral lessons so described in your prayer. I am not at odds with that.

cool.

The difference comes in implementation. Individuals need to make those choices and furthermore must be free to make those choices in order to square themselves to their maker. Compulsory requirements through force of governement are neither moral actions nor in keeping with the concept that one does these things in order to behave in a Christ like manner of their own free will. People need for better or worse to decide for themselves how to meet the obligation of helping others.

I don't see how creating govt policy which meets the needs of all individuals is keeping people from "squaring themselves with their maker." Do you really think that it prohibits that? Govt policy just seems to be way overrated as a means to allow people to reconcile with their creator.

Another issue is the importance of eliminating suffering in the world compared to creating an environment conducive to individuals reconciling with their creators. Eliminating suffering is extremely important in Christianity, and it is emphasized many, many times in the Bible. Christ himself ephasized the importance of it.

[Kidlicious]

If anything forming a govt which encorages people to reconcile with God in a certain manner is more of a violation of the principle of seperation of church and state.

edit:

The concept of separating church and state is often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke. According to his principle of the social contract, Locke argued that the government lacked authority in the realm of individual conscience, as this was something rational people could not cede to the government for it or others to control. For Locke, this created a natural right in the liberty of conscience, which he argued must therefore remain protected from any government authority. These views on religious tolerance and the importance of individual conscience, along with his social contract, became particularly influential in the American colonies and the drafting of the United States Constitution.

-wiki

[Patroklos]

That quote makes no sense in context of what you are arguing against. The point is exactly that, the government lacks the authority in the realm of individual conscience. Or in other words, you have to leave it to the individual.

If I remember correctly you are not very well off financially. So what exactly are you doing to "square yourself with your maker" by barely paying into a system, probably taking more back yourself than you payed in, and then leaving it up to others to care for your other human beings? You have effectively done nothing to help your fellow man, you have simply mandated others do it.

[Kidlicious]

That quote makes no sense in context of what you are arguing against. The point is exactly that, the government lacks the authority in the realm of individual conscience. Or in other words, you have to leave it to the individual.

If I remember correctly you are not very well off financially. So what exactly are you doing to "square yourself with your maker" by barely paying into a system, probably taking more back yourself than you payed in, and then leaving it up to others to care for your other human beings? You have effectively done nothing to help your fellow man, you have simply mandated others do it.

Obviously you want the government to alter my conscience by not reforming health care. That way I'll reconcile with your God.

[Ecofarm]

To be fair "financially well off" is not required to make a significant contribution.

[DanS]

I think the Dem leadership is living in fantasy land. They want to talk around the abortion issue and wish it away. That doesn't seem like a strategy of success to me.

For instance, here's the lede in an analysis piece in the WaPo this morning...

Democratic leaders working to win over abortion opponents for health-care reform

By Alec MacGillis
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, March 5, 2010

As President Obama makes his final plea for a health-care overhaul, Democratic leaders in Congress are embarking on a delicate strategy to win over abortion opponents, a gambit that could determine whether the legislation becomes law.

The effort depends on convincing as many as a dozen antiabortion Democrats in the House that abortion language in the Senate bill is more stringent than initially portrayed. But Democratic leaders must be careful that they don't drive away abortion rights supporters who are increasingly concerned that the measure would prove severely restrictive.

But congressional leaders are still working behind the scenes to try to persuade some in the Stupak group. If the leadership loses antiabortion members, most of them Midwestern Roman Catholics who otherwise support the legislation, the only way to compensate would be to add votes from conservative Democrats who previously opposed the measure.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) expressed confidence Thursday that resistance from antiabortion members could be overcome. "When people think there isn't going to be a bill, they can take whatever position they want," she said. "But now they know there is going to be a bill, and these members are saying, 'Let's talk.' "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/04/AR2010030405040.html?hpid=topnews

[Patroklos]

Reason why we need serious health care reform.

1.) That really has nothing at all to do with heath care. She is just another **** who tried the game the system by not getting a fixed rate mortgage.

2.) There is nothing sympathetic about that story whatsoever.

[Kidlicious]

So what exactly are you doing to "square yourself with your maker" by barely paying into a system.

God does not judge me according to how much I pay into the system Pattycakes. What kind of God do you believe in?

[Patroklos]

God does not judge me according to how much I pay into the system Pattycakes. What kind of God do you believe in?

He does if that is the method you are professing to use to help your fellow man, And if you are paying into the system less than you take out, you are not helping anyone but yourself.

Your whole idea is patently ridiculous, you are basically saying that because you pay your taxes you are on the fast tract to God's good graces. You taxes are based on a pact with your fellow citizens, they have nothing to do with God.

[MrFun]

1.) That really has nothing at all to do with heath care. She is just another **** who tried the game the system by not getting a fixed rate mortgage.

2.) There is nothing sympathetic about that story whatsoever.

I guess you didn't read toward the end of the article, where her health care issues are discussed.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I don't see how creating govt policy which meets the needs of all individuals is keeping people from "squaring themselves with their maker." Do you really think that it prohibits that?

Yes. It prescribes not only actions for oneself but makes compulsory the actions of others. Thus impinges on the free will of others. If the essence of salvation is the courses of action you chart for yourself, why would you disallow others to chart their own courses?

This arguement of course only applies ot the moral consideration of helping ones fellow man. The Senate bill individual mandate is another matter completely as to its impact to free will. That is a more self interested arguement.

[DaShi]

I think the Dem leadership is living in fantasy land. They want to talk around the abortion issue and wish it away. That doesn't seem like a strategy of success to me.

Diplomacy is for weaklings. They should just kick them in the dingding.

[Patroklos]

I guess you didn't read toward the end of the article, where her health care issues are discussed.

I did, it was the same paragraph where she professes she didn't know she had an ARM. Or in other words she is stupid, and her financial woes are to a large degree based on her stupidity. We all have financial burdens, and in order to avoid being held responsible for them people usually point to the ones they had no control over as the straw that broke the camels back instead of the myraid ones they impose on themselves.