The American "Healthcare" thread

[chequita guevara]

How about we ... stop giving 2/3 of our paychecks to the government

Uhm, where in America do you live that you have to give 2/3rds of your paycheck to the government? Most I've ever had to pay is about a 1/3rd, and that's including sales taxes, and not including the refund I get. I used to be in the top bracket, of 34% (or whatever it was) too (although being a marginal tax, my overall came out to 8%).

Seriously, you must have the worst accountant in the world.

[HalfLotus]

Congressional Budget Office

@DaShi, I think the market system does work better than a government system. That debate is kinda flipped on it's head lately because we have government failures in healthcare and the economy, and they get blamed on the "free-market", which is not accurate imo.

The system I want, is what I described: a voluntary and innovative solution from the community, and perhaps local and state governments. The community does not necessarily have to include the federal government.

I draw on older ideas, specifically Alexis de Tocqueville's Observations on American Society. which "applaud[s] the voluntary spirit of American society." (emphasis added)

Of course liberty and voluntarism are losing the moral debate badly, because the socialists have framed the debate in terms of helping each other only through government., and Americans have lost their independent and voluntary tradition.

And that problems caused by government are now easily blamed on "free markets" because our systems are so complex, Americans are so out of touch with their traditions, and we often rely on BS from "non-partisan" liars like those at the Congressional Budget Office.

[Dinner]

the Lewin analysis estimates the premiums would be at least 20 percent lower

The Lewin Group is completely owned by private insurance companies so of course it puts any public option in the worst possible light. In fact it really is nothing more then insurance company propaganda unsupported by facts.

[HalfLotus]

Uhm, where in America do you live that you have to give 2/3rds of your paycheck to the government? Most I've ever had to pay is about a 1/3rd, and that's including sales taxes, and not including the refund I get. I used to be in the top bracket, of 34% (or whatever it was) too (although being a marginal tax, my overall came out to 8%).

Seriously, you must have the worst accountant in the world.

I was shooting from the hip there, I've read that it's closer to 50% when you consider all of the "hidden" taxes that are passed on to consumers. Especially inflation (many don't consider it a tax, per se, but I do.)

And then not so hidden taxes such as gasoline tax and the like.

[Straybow]

What have you been smoking? Obama has said over and over he doesn't want single payer and that most people will retain private insurance. The current debate is if there should even be just a public option for people to choose if they want it.

The claim that Obama would criminalize private health providers is just Zaku levels of dumb.

Then why does the bill bar writing of new policies by private insurers, punish those who choose not to take insurance, and promise to take on all whom the private insurers or employers drop from insurance coverage (clearly designed as incentive for companies to drop private coverage and leave employees to the public option, and as incentive for private unsurers to fold their tents rather than attempt to compete with the wondrous and miraculously cheap public option)?

The people who support the bill (like the idiots in Congress) say they haven't read it, and the people who have read it say it does have these provisions.

[Dinner]

To my knowledge the bill does not bar new insurance policies (please site), in fact, none of the four competing bills do anything like that. Just like any insurance company the public option would be open to everyone and the reason companies will not be dropping employer based insurance whole sale is because if they do that then they will be forced to pay into the public fund any way. They can either shop around and find their own private carrier or they can pay into the public system but they must do one or the other. Even the GAO has said that it is likely only about 12-13 million people will opt for the public option but at least they have the choice to do so if they want.

[Straybow]

It has everywhere it's been tried.

So, which is it? Does Obama have to cut off private routes to care to make Obamacare work, which miraculously makes it better? Or does Obama not cut off outside solutions as you've said before?

[Dinner]

Like I've said before? :wtf:

Edit: The anwser is very simple. They are not cutting off outside routes and instead most Democrats would simply like to see a bare bones public plan be an option people could choose if they wanted too. They could go private if they like or they could opt for the public plan (which is more efficient and cheaper in every country it has ever been used in) if they so choose. Why are you so against people making up their own minds?

If the public plan is as horrible as people like Drake claim it will be then no one will choose it but if it is better then it's a free market choice. Rather then just subsidizing private companies more, which is what the blue dogs want to do, lets create more competition in the market place and let people decide for themselves which option is best for them. Besides the public option would probably look something like medicare where the public insurance provider sells insurance but where each individual gets to choose which doctor or hospital actually provides the physical care.