A view of Socialized Medicine from the other side

[DaShi]

No one has to give up their current plans. Regardless, of a public plan, healthcare is and will continue to be rationed, unless you are willing to pay out of pocket.

[DaShi]

That's a no, zaku.

[Dinner]

Why would Americans want their health care rationed?

Ben, you ignorant toss pot, universal coverage does not mean rationed care and you know it but prefer to lie. Japan has universal coverage with private health care suppliers where prices are all standardized as are the terms of every procedure but private providers still compete to offer the best service and to increase efficiency. The result is Japan has no waiting lists, has lots and lots of private providers (more per capita then the US), they get some of the best health care in the world, but they pay 1/2 to 1/3 what Americans do.

How do they do it? Simple, they cut out all the middle men and then they standardize everything to create as much efficiency and transparency as possible. They get economies of scale pricing because their entire population is in one giant insurance pool instead of the thousands tiny pools we have in America.

[zakubandit]

DaShi, I applaud your good debating article, but it fails to point out that "most Americans" thing is off base. Most Americans would mean that the debate for socialized medicine wouldn't even matter because a majority vote would have already been cast. But it hasn't. That fact of the matter is that there is an overwhelming number of citizens that are against the proposal, no matter how nice the left media spin the polls. Who was questioned in the poll? Americans, adults, bipartisan. What class? What percentage of the questioned have insurance, what percentage are poverty and collecting welfare, what percentage are middle class, what percentage are upper class, what percentage are white, what percentage are black, what percentage voted Obama, what percentage voted for someone other than Obama? All of those would most likely clear up exactly how well of a poll this was. I don't rely much on polls, they are always biased even if they try not to be. So unless they went from South Central LA to the Hamptons to interview a completely bipartisan percentage of peoples, it is not too reliable. Now I am not saying that socialized medicine isn't a good idea, but it is a tried and failed method multiple times over. Just because we are America DOES NOT mean we get it right every time. And Obama's plan does not come close to getting it right.

His first flaw is the push to get it done NOW. Everything with him is now, now now. He has no patience. Second, he wants to tack on more and higher taxes to everyone, the same everyone who are losing jobs, losing salary, are struggling with survival as is.

Not to mention that a fair portion of us blue collar workers are not willing to pay for medical coverage for the non-contributing population. I never help anyone who doesn't help themselves first. I almost never give money to the poor, unless of course they seem to be so far gone that there is no way for them to return to society. If the poor of America really really wanted medical coverage then they wouldn't be a statistic. You know how many guys I know in the Army that joined JUST because it gave them medical and a salary? Then you ask those guys what their family does; 9 times out of 10 those guys would say that either mom or dad wasn't around, that whoever was around didn't work, and that brother(s) were either in jail, high school drop outs, criminals, or junkies. And we should pay for these people?

You want a socialized system? Ok, first step mandatory drug tests for anyone who wants medical coverage by the gov and does not have a job (also goes good for UI). Mandatory unemployment classes to help find a job if they don't have one. Proof of residency. You should get the jist. Why help those that won't help themselves? They want hand outs they can go somewhere else where it's ok to be a burden on the rest of us that bust our asses everyday to make ends meet and provide for our families. I never took handouts, and I never give them out...but that is just me, I was only a volunteer to the military at the age of 17.

[zakubandit]

Sorry, I do have a bad habit of writing a lot... Not intended...just happens.

[Ben Kenobi]

No one has to give up their current plans.

Yes, they will. That's the whole point of single payer. One size fits all. Everyone will have to pay for the same coverage.

Regardless, of a public plan, healthcare is and will continue to be rationed, unless you are willing to pay out of pocket.

By the same token you decide exactly how much coverage you need and when. Up here, those decisions are already made. You have to pay, and you have to get the plan that is for everyone.

Up here, my glasses are not covered. If I want to pay for glasses, I have to pay for the universal health care plan, and for my glasses, and for everything else, dentists etc which are of course not covered. The end result is you pay far more. Comparing US spending on health care with medicare is apples and oranges. Very little up here is covered by medical.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, you ignorant toss pot, universal coverage does not mean rationed care/

I have lived my whole life under universal health care and you are telling me you know better then the system I deal with up here?

Universal health care is rationed. When you remove the constraint of price, that means you must have rationing. There is no other way to control scarcity if you take price out of the equation.

Japan has universal coverage with private health care suppliers where prices are all standardized

Prices are subsidised. That is the point. The costs associated with health care are not borne by the person. By spreading the cost out across everyone you reduce the individual burden, but at the same time, you remove the incentive not to abuse the system. Taking away price is a very, very bad thing for the provision of health care in the long run. Everything has a cost, there ain' no such thing as a free lunch.

The result is Japan has no waiting lists, has lots and lots of private providers (more per capita then the US), they get some of the best health care in the world, but they pay 1/2 to 1/3 what Americans do.

Japan also has 200 percent of their GDP in debt.

Good luck to all the Japanese.

[DaShi]

Yes, they will. That's the whole point of single payer. One size fits all. Everyone will have to pay for the same coverage.

Where is Obama's single payer tax plan?

By the same token you decide exactly how much coverage you need and when. Up here, those decisions are already made. You have to pay, and you have to get the plan that is for everyone.

You will still get to decide how much coverage you want under the public plan as you are free to choose private companies. In fact, this plan will probably allow the creation of private specialty and complimentary plans for people who want expanded coverage outside of the public plan. This will increase choice, competition, and coverage.

Up here, my glasses are not covered. If I want to pay for glasses, I have to pay for the universal health care plan, and for my glasses, and for everything else, dentists etc which are of course not covered. The end result is you pay far more. Comparing US spending on health care with medicare is apples and oranges. Very little up here is covered by medical.

I don't care what coverage you're getting in Canadia. It has nothing to do with healthcare here.

[DaShi]

Sorry, zaku. I am unable to read your posts. However, I'm quite certain the answer I gave you earlier covers it.

[Ben Kenobi]

You will still get to decide how much coverage you want under the public plan as you are free to choose private companies.

Not the point. Why should I be forced to pay for public health coverage, which doesn't meet my needs? Shouldn't I simply be able to buy a plan that fits me?

In fact, this plan will probably allow the creation of private specialty and complimentary plans for people who want expanded coverage outside of the public plan. This will increase choice, competition, and coverage.

We've seen just the opposite. Free is difficult to compete against.

[zakubandit]

I don't care what coverage you're getting in Canadia. It has nothing to do with healthcare here.

It is just an example of the system, one of the examples that helped decide the policy plan Congress is looking at. So it does hold context to us. If they have flaws, they do, and we don't learn from those flaws then we will redo them.

[DaShi]

Not the point. Why should I be forced to pay for public health coverage, which doesn't meet my needs? Shouldn't I simply be able to buy a plan that fits me?

How can it not be the point? That was exactly what you were talking about: "Yes, they will. That's the whole point of single payer. One size fits all. Everyone will have to pay for the same coverage."

No one has to buy into the public plan. They can buy into a private plan that better fits them. However, the public plan will be cheaper for those who can't afford a private plan or don't want the frills of one.

We've seen just the opposite. Free is difficult to compete against.

No, forced is difficult to compete against. Fortunately, that is not the case here.

[DaShi]

Sorry zaku but you are wrong.

[Ben Kenobi]

No one has to buy into the public plan.

You buy that? The way it works up here is that everyone has to buy into the public plan. No opting out.

They can buy into a private plan that better fits them. However, the public plan will be cheaper for those who can't afford a private plan or don't want the frills of one.

If it's voluntary, great. More power to them. Just don't make other people pay into the plan.

[DaShi]

You buy that? The way it works up here is that everyone has to buy into the public plan. No opting out.

Good for Canadia. But in case you haven't noticed, we're not talking about Canadia's health plan.