California and Mob Rule

[Drake Tungsten]

What's all the fuss about the CA SC making a reasonable decision?

It can't be reasonable if it's wrong. The same logic is behind the backlash towards Ms. California.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Apparently its because they made a reasonable decision in a politically wrong way.

[Ben Kenobi]

I never said they aren't allowed to vote so you're just trying to change the arguement AGAIN.

You said I believed they should be second-class citizens. They were by definition second-class citizens when they couldn't vote.

The situation with gay men is totally different.

[DinoDoc]

What's all the fuss about the CA SC making a reasonable decision?

It can't be reasonable if it's wrong. The same logic is behind the backlash towards Ms. California.

So it's just bloviating from stupid people? I was afraid there was actually a serious legal arguement I was missing.

[rah]

BK, you are such an idiot.

[Dinner]

What exactly does the phrase "Constitutional Amendment" mean to you? OMG!!! A Constitutional Amendment slightly changed the meaning of a clause in the Constitution!

I'd say it is a pretty major change. The constitution as originally written, not amended but originally written, said that everyone has the right to be treated equally before the law and this change wasn't minor because it said every is to be treated equally except for groups we don't like. That's a major and fundamental change.

I'd say this ruling is just as bad as the pre-civil war rulings which kept supporting slavery. It's just wrong on a moral level and specifically this finding is wrong on a factual level in that it is a massive change to the entire meaning of the phrase equal protection.

[Q Classic]

BK, you are such an idiot.

I suppose the only test for second-class citizen or not is whether you can vote. Awesome.

Racism, Sexism, Homophobia, all of that's over, we can go home!

[MrFun]

Drake and DD, you're completely entitled to your negative opinion toward freedom and civil rights.

[Ben Kenobi]

Racism, Sexism, Homophobia, all of that's over, we can go home!

Right, now we get to it. The siren song of progressivism.

Lets ignore the fact that liberal bastions like Wyoming were the first to give women the franchise, and that a Republican named Lincoln freed the slaves.

Are gay men being lynched? Are they denied the vote? In what way are they second-class citizens in America?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'd say it is a pretty major change.

Because you are looking at this politically and not legally.

The constitution as originally written, not amended but originally written, said that everyone has the right to be treated equally before the law and this change wasn't minor because it said every is to be treated equally except for groups we don't like. That's a major and fundamental change.

Every freaking Amendment to a Constitution changes some part of it. And yes, it is minor because it only impacts a part of ONE clause. It doesn't create wholesale changes in how California is run.

There is a reason it was 6-1. If they were "bowing to the mob", they'd decide it against the facts and go for a revision theory because the loudest folk on this issue are the anti-Prop8 ers. They are ones in force on the steps of the Statehouse. They are the ones with the legislature and Governor behind them.

In addition, the majority opinion gives clear advice as to junk the initiative system and even says (in dicta) if California decided to offer marriage benefits to gay couples but call it something else, they would undoubtably approve.

So I can't, for the life of me, understand how people would say this decision was "bowing to the mob" when the California SC tries everything they can to help out the anti Prop 8 crowd by instruction.

[Drake Tungsten]

Drake and DD, you're completely entitled to your negative opinion toward freedom and civil rights.

I voted against a Prop 8-like measure in Nebraska in 2005. The fact that I've become so annoyed and disgusted with the behavior of gay marriage proponents over the past four years that I'm now far more sympathetic to gay marriage opponents (who I don't agree with on nearly every other social issue) should give you pause. Your histrionics and moralistic hectoring are driving away moderate voters...

[Q Classic]

Right, now we get to it. The siren song of progressivism.

Better to be progressive than reactionary and regressive as you so pine for.

If you want to go live back in the 14th century when "true love" abounded, please, do, just don't try to drag the rest of us along with it.

And don't try and take our ****ing antibiotics with you.

Lets ignore the fact that liberal bastions like Wyoming were the first to give women the franchise, and that a Republican named Lincoln freed the slaves.

The modern Republican party is connected to its ancestral Republican party in name only. Even then, there's only so much you can do to coast on your historic achievements before more recent bigotry and intolerance start to outweigh it.

Are gay men being lynched?

No, of course not. I mean, other than Matthew Sheppard, but we all know that was a hoax. And besides, he wasn't punished for anything, really.

Well, other than being gay. But that's not a crime, so, therefore, not a lynching!

Are they denied the vote?

Only you are conflating the two.

In what way are they second-class citizens in America?

The point has already been made repeatedly, but "he who will not listen..."

[Tattila the Hun]

Hum, I seem to recall reading, that what the court ruled simply states, that the lawful union, which gets all the benefits and whatnots your regular marriages get, cannot be called "marriage". Or so. Also, being the, erm, devil's advocate, how would you feel, if an institution dear to you, which has for few millenia meant something, were molded to something else? Let's take bar mitzwah, add some "modern" values to it, and invite hindu's to practice it, too. With holy cows and all.

But really, with the divorce rates so high, maybe fighting for one's right to marry isn't such a bad thing? Commitment and all that?

Huah... I don't really give a damn, actually... I think I need some sleep.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, of course not. I mean, other than Matthew Sheppard, but we all know that was a hoax. And besides, he wasn't punished for anything, really.

Where the men arrested, sentenced? This was not the case for black men in Jim Crow's america. Clearly crimes against gay people are treated the same way as crimes against any other person.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hum, I seem to recall reading, that what the court ruled simply states, that the lawful union, which gets all the benefits and whatnots your regular marriages get, cannot be called "marriage". Or so.

They didn't. They simply ruled that an initiative, which only alters one clause in the Constitution is an amendment and can simply be voted on, by the laws and Constitution of the State of California, by the people in referendum. It is not a revision, which substantially alters the Constitution (ie, far more than amendment), which would require 2/3rd vote of legislators as well as majority vote in referendum.