Fuehrer: lets bring Federal Republic of Germany to an end

[Unimatrix11]

This ´mapa´ is part of the map for hearts of iron 3, isnt it?

Ben, how about this: Germans dont even want those provinces back - we wouldnt take them, if they were offered to us, for free, most probably. True, after unification in 1990, some thought, this would only be the beginning of ´revision´, but that was due to a national high, that soon ebbed off. We very much prefer good relationships with the polish as good neighbors and the russians as patrol suppliers and a bit of counterweight to the US today. These areas are in fact polish/russian today (regardless of their history) - there is neither reason nor desire to change that.

About the original topic. It can be indeed quite disturbing to experience this ossi/wessi thing, still, almost 20 years after unification. Here is one of my personal experiences:
For a job, i recently had to share a hotel room with a guy from saxony (east). He was maybe 25 years old - so he can only dimly remember the times before unification, if at all. Now, you got to know, that saxonians have a very broad local accent, which sounds quite funny to the rest of germans, actually - especially those who have little experience with it - like older westerners, who have been isolated from it, for decades.
We watched a TV show together and there was a Dr. Hümmler - now i humoristically noted, that he must be from somewhere my colleague lives. Cause they pronounce Himmler (boss of the SS, back in the 3rd Reich, and later army group commander) exactly like ´Hümmler´, due to their accent. Note, that i only referred to the accent. He then pretty much snapped and complained about the ongoing ossi-prejudices, depite the fact, that i didnt say ´you ossis´ or something like that, but rather ´you saxonians´ (and there are 16 german states), quite conciously, actually, exactly to prevent such ossi/wessi thing - which i thought to be inappropriate anyways, due to his age. I would have made the same joke, with a bavarian (west - the only ones with a comparable broad accent), if it had fit.

So, the impression i got is, that the ossi-wessie-thing is being carried over to the next generation even, and thus might last as long as the seperation itself did, and that it seems to be stronger in the east than in the west, for ´Ossis´ now expect to be made fun of when in contact with ´Wessis´ and are thus very sensetive and defensive (or rather: aggresive in response) to every kind of locally based humor, even if it was not even meant as an ossi-wessi-thing.

EDIT: It is true, that the ´unification´ was more like an ´annexation´ (or rather: ´Anschluss´, like austria in 1938) of the east by the west - very little was carried over from the east. Actually, the only thing i could come up with right now, is the ´green arrow´ - a street sign, that allows right turns at crossings despite the traffic light being red (standard in the US, but not allowed in germany by default). And that´s pretty much it. The idea of giving a unified germany a new name also, actually came to me at the time, back then (and i was like 15 years old). But giving a new name to something that hasnt really changed, except in size, is kinda fraud, isnt it? How about: eFRGwspaga (expanded Federal Republic of Germany with a socialist party and green arrows)? The national anthem is another topic here - personally, i think the GDR-anthem had a nice melody, that also was not packed with historic issues (we didnt really change our anthem here in the west after the war, just outlawed its first stanza and made the 3rd its lyrics, while in the east, they made a whole new one, which is more clear-cut).

[Ben Kenobi]

You'd have asked a hell of a lot from my dad wouldn'cha? Oh, and this just in:

"Canadians give swine flu to pigs!"

We were in the war long before you folks got ready.

[Riesstiu IV]

This is what Germany should be today if there was any justice in the free world:

[Ben Kenobi]

While Poles tend to glorify Roosevelt and Churchill, Stalin was more generous to Poland than they were:

Is this before, or after he dismembered Poland? I'm shocked to see anyone who considers himself a Pole to suggest that Stalin was better for Poland then the Western allies. We went to war to save you folks, while Stalin annexed, and held all of eastern Poland.

Churchill and Roosevelt insisted on Nysa Klodzka river to be the border of Poland, while Stalin decided it'd be Nysa Luzycka river, giving us entire Lower Silesia.

While you folks lost all of the east, over half your territory. Lower Silesia is a tiny, tiny area compared to half of Belarus and western Ukraine. That's like someone taking all the meat and leaving you candy to compensate.

He also gave us Szczecin. True, he did take eastern half of pre-war Poland, but Churchill and Roosevelt did nothing to stop that, and Stalin at least wanted to give us large recompensation, while Churchill did not. Churchill said "do not stuff the polish goose" (with german territory).

Yes, but he also did not say, stuff the Russian goose with Polish territory. Do you honestly believe that if it were the west who occupied Poland and not Russia, that you would not have gotten eastern Poland back? I'm surprised that you would accept a 'recompense' rather then the rightful return of Polish territory. Why do you blame the west for what they could not do, rather then the Russians for what they chose to do.

Churchill was right. Polish people should have kept Polish territory, and Germans, German territory.

Well, not exactly. First, when it comes to the plebiscite you've mentioned,
the area of Olsztyn voted like 15% for Poland, as well as Powisle region - it was the protestant Masurians that voted for Germany en masse.

Protestant Prussians, yes, Masurians were the German Catholics. Most of East Prussia was overwhelmingly German Protestant, moreso then the rest of Germany, and particularly in the North.

Secondly, do not forget that:
1) During the plebiscite, unlike the plebiscited in Schlezwig or Saar or Malmedy, German administration was left intact. Needless to say, all administration were in hands of ethnic Germans, not polish peasants. While in Silesia Poles were strong enough to battle it to demand for example that only half of policemen should be German, in Warmia/Ermland, Mazury/Masuren they were too weak. Polish activists were persecuted, and killed by German authorities.

Still, it does not change the result that the majority of the people, 85 percent even in the tiny areas you have specified preferred German administration to Poland, when given the democratic option. Also note, that the corridor was not given the option of plebiscite. It wasn't about 'national self determination', but everything about political expediency.

I don't believe that Poland has any claim to Pomerania, but it's a serious question as to what to do with 'Greater Poland' from Posen to the corridor. I also don't believe they have a claim to Warmia, but Masuria is a different matter too.

2) The plebiscite was held during the time of greatest success of Red Army, which controled then nearly entire Polish-Prussian border and was just outside Warsaw. German press was already calling Poland dead, and not without any reason. Voting for Poland might have seemed a suicide.

When you folks declared war on Russia? Tough. Poland thought they might carve extra territory in the East from Russia and were defeated.

3) The voting cards were very specific. There was no choice between Poland and Germany, but between Poland and Eastern Prussia, which was sort of wrong already, but to add to that Poland was printed with latin font, which the local population did not know, while Ostpreussen was printed in gothic font.

Then why wasn't the corridor subject to Plebescite? The allies were afraid they would vote with Germany too, and then they could not give it to Poland. Instead, they gave it to Poland in violation of Wilson's 14 points involving self-determination.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is very probable you have some polish origin aside german, Ben.

We don't know much about my great-grandmothers' side of the family. Is Krossa a Polish name? As I said I have nothing against Poles, but it doesn't justify ethnic cleansing.

Most of these lands are less than 1% german now.

Yes, you should be thankful that Germany did not do the same to you in the territory they took after the partition. Imagine if Poles were treated the same way as Germans in Pomerania and East Prussia. We'd not be talking about a race of Poles anymore. I don't hold Poles responsible, rather I hold the Russians but Poland should return Pomerania and East Prussia to Germany as a sign of amity.

A couple of generations were born there already. I myself was born in pre-ww2 german territory.
It is simple too late to change that. Poland is not to blame: polish gouverment in London didn't want entire Western Pomerania, it didn't want Lower Silesia, it didn't want mass expulsions.
Neither did want many of the people settled there to do so.

Yes, but it is their decision to retain the territory. In this they are no better then the Germans, Russians and Austrians who occupied Poland.

Some did. But many were:
1) Expelled from USSR
2) Brought, sometimes by force, from the West, especially from France as "expatriants".
My own grandpa until his death wanted to come back to his hometown in modern Ukraine.

I would like to visit Allenstein someday without seeing history rewritten in Polish script. I would like to seen Koenigsberg again as it was. Those are my paternal origins, like it or not. Just as you would want the origins of your family preserved, so would I.

But while I am fond of my eastern ancestry, I find Silesia as my home region.
And I do not have any links with Podolia region in Ukraine.

It's 64 years after the war. It's too late to change anything. Do you want to expel people living there? By what right? Most were born there. Do you want Poland to give up Silesia and Western Pomerania as well as Warmia and Mazury? Why should it do so, especially since it's lost much bigger lands in the east, and got Silesia, Pomerania etc completely devastated?

What right do you have to take territory away from people just because another people took it away from you? As I've said, Poland has claim to the east and ought to receive the east. Poland should voluntary return Pomerania and East Prussia to Germany as a sign of amity.

They weren't Slavs actually, they were Baltic tribes, related to Lithuanians, Latvians etc.
But You've misread my post. I claimed Powisle region was inhabited by Poles, not entire Prussia. Powisle are the parts of Prussia next to Vistula river.

There's no evidence for it, unfortunately. Teutonic Knights predate Poland, and Lithuania which formed afterwards. The homeland of the knights is in Culmerland which is now in Poland, and I doubt any Pole would claim they have more right to the territory then the Germans who settled there when there was nothing.

Nope, my love. Masurians were actually 75% protestant, like the rest of Eastern Prussia except for the part that belonged to Poland before 1772. Warmia/Ermland, including Olsztyn/Allenstein, is the largest catholic region in Prussia proper.

Masurians or 75 percent of the people living in Masuria were Protestant? Not everyone who lived there was from Masuria.

Uh. Short history of Prussia since XIII century:
1226 Conrad of Masovia invites Teutonic Knights to Ziemia Chelminska region, adjactent to Prussia. They are supposed to conquer Prussia as his fief. Yet they falsify documents, get independant and start bullying Poles, leading crusades against them, instead of helping them.

Note the title 'Masuria'. He was a younger son of Frederick Barbarossa, emperor of the Germans, one of the Conradines. That was my point. The origins of the knights have diddly squat to do with the Hohenzollerns, who don't appear or get involved for several hundred years later.

If not Brandenburg Hohenzollerns, Prussia would be today a province of Poland.

And without the Lithuanians, Poland would be a fief of the knights. The sword cuts both ways.

Most didn't have to be expelled - they were evacuated by german authorities, or fled themselves during ww2.

That's a lie.

You may frown upon expulsions, and not without a reason, but it's definitely spared us having another Balkans here.

I frown upon Poles justifying ethnic cleansing. I think it's a terrible position when the ovens were on Polish territory. It makes me think Poles have forgotten history.

These lands are majorly polish.

Bull****!

Your map shows just the opposite, that East Prussia and Pomerania were majority German. Greater Poland is majority Polish, but is the land south of Pomerania, and west of the Vistula.

They used to belong to Poland for much of their history. It's better than USA's claims to its entire territory.

Warmia, one part of East Prussia, was more German then Pole. Pomerania, was NEVER Polish until after the Second world War. Same with Ducal Prussia, in the East.

Why should Germany hold an exclave made of people of completely other nationality and religion, especially since it was the existance of the very same exclave that caused ww2?

Koenigsberg should be returned to the Germans. Would you rather see Kattowice cleansed and returned to the Austrians? Poles would have a legitimate beef!

Actually, there was consensus that East Prussia should be given to Poland.
And I doubt any allies would have let german refugees back in.

Things are different now. Like it or not, people are going to start seriously questioning what to do with the exclave, that Russians have no right to occupy. This will reopen the issues of Pomerania, Warmia and Silesia.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, how about this: Germans dont even want those provinces back - we wouldnt take them, if they were offered to us, for free, most probably. True, after unification in 1990, some thought, this would only be the beginning of ´revision´, but that was due to a national high, that soon ebbed off. We very much prefer good relationships with the polish as good neighbors and the russians as patrol suppliers and a bit of counterweight to the US today. These areas are in fact polish/russian today (regardless of their history) - there is neither reason nor desire to change that.

Understandable given the history of those who stayed in Germany is different from the diaspora. The diaspora did not participate nor was responsible for the holocaust, and yet have ties to the east. However, just because there is no desire now, doesn't change the issues surrounding these areas, particularly with the exclave.

About the original topic. It can be indeed quite disturbing to experience this ossi/wessi thing, still, almost 20 years after unification.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing your personal experiences.

[Unimatrix11]

Well, (eastern) prussia, or parts of it, being an exclave certainly cannot be a post WW2-issue, right? I mean it was an exclave for a lot of times in the past - the only thing that changed about that is, that it is now a russian exclave (the northern half at least), while before it was a german exclave. So ´exclave´ cannot be the problem here.

About the german population that once lived there: I wonder if you could call the expulsion ´diaspora´ in german public without getting frowned on - i really cant say - cause ´diaspora´ is linked with the jewish lack of a home state (clumsy formulation on my side - you know what i mean) pre 1947 (?). What these people are called here are the ´homeland-expelled´ (Heimatvertriebene) - and that generation is almost completely dead by now.

Actually my best buddy´s family is a german-silesian one. Some of them stayed in what was to become Poland after WW2. It´s a bit much to say, they were free to choose, but the fact alone, that he grew up there, being german, in the 70´s and 80´s shows, that not all the germans had been deported. They have been frowned on, beaten, threatened, mobbed, raped and whatnot, but ultimately, it was possible to stay (and even keep some property). You must understand that WW2 cost Poland about 30% of its population - and that directly after the war, there was a lot of hatred against germans in poland, esp. if they refused to leave - i think that is understandable, since german minorities served as a war-pretext the time before, that they wanted them out - all of them.

During the closing phases of WW2, when the russians arrived in germany, most people fled anyways. Other things that happened (and i once had a terrible nightmare about this) were whole families ´going into the lake´, meaning drowning themselves, to escape russian revenge. Germany had started a war of extermination against russia - and russia wanted to make sure, that they would not try this again, without knowing what it actually means.

I think the graph with the election results shows pretty well, that eastern prussians had as much guilt in the whole affair as Dresdeners, Hamburgians, or any other german population, most of which recieved their punishment in one form or the other as well - if not that harsh in many cases, i will admit.

That polish-german and russian-german relations have been improved so much since these horrible events is awesome. I think, it´s not too much to say, that the german and polish people are, despite some minor political turbulences, friends today. Polish people live here in my house, in fact. There is no way we will allow some map oddity to change that to what it once was again. If russia was to abandon north-eastern prussia today, it would be like that last piece of Pizza, that nobody would want out of courtesy, probably - neither Poland nor Germany would take it, out of fear, it could offend the other.

EDIT: Now, IF we could turn back the clock to 45 and you´d want to hear my opinion on what borders to draw, i´d say:
Despite all political realities of the time, yes, Poland should have been restored in full size, maybe with minor corrections in the east, for there have been issues there before the war (the french wanted a strong poland after WW1). Since the germans had left east prussia pretty much anyways, the partition of it would have been an appropriate ´war-spoil´ for both. Then i would have made the german baltic coast, upto what was once the german-german border, Israel. That would have saved the world a hell of troubles and the jewish people would have gotten their land from those who actually owed them. It could have also been a neat buffer between the cold-war blocks. (Slightly crossing various lines here, including that of seriousness, i might add, that Hitler´s pre-war warning - that if the jewish people would once again plunge the peoples of europe into a war, the result would be their extermination - would have still held true). Silesia? Well, it might be small, but it is/was a very important region, due to his coal mines and related industries, being relatively densly populated. But with silesia, in contrast to eastern prussia, the case was (!) more clear cut - i would have had it remain with germany, since it actually had been german for hundreds of years in succession. Maybe some sort of Saar-solution - give it under polish adminsitration for, say, 15 years, avaiable for them to exploit or incorparate properly - their choice, and then have a (impartial - meaining yes or no for the whole of it) vote, wether it wanted to be polish, german, or maybe even independent.

But all of these (edit-)thoughts are moot now - these things are not even topics here anymore. It´s geek-stuff at best. And thats a good thing.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, (eastern) prussia, or parts of it, being an exclave certainly cannot be a post WW2-issue, right? I mean it was an exclave for a lot of times in the past - the only thing that changed about that is, that it is now a russian exclave (the northern half at least), while before it was a german exclave. So ´exclave´ cannot be the problem here.

At one point it had prominence because it was outside of 'Germany' determined by Austria.

Exclave is part of the problem.

About the german population that once lived there: I wonder if you could call the expulsion ´diaspora´ in german public without getting frowned on

Diaspora refers to the Germans who left the German states, Prussia and Austria to go to America or elsewhere. That is what I was using the term to refer to, and why I said they have a different perspective then those who stayed in Germany. We weren't responsible for the rise of Hitler or the holocaust, and yet we are still German nonetheless.

You must understand that WW2 cost Poland about 30% of its population - and that directly after the war, there was a lot of hatred against germans in poland, esp. if they refused to leave - i think that is understandable, since german minorities served as a war-pretext the time before, that they wanted them out - all of them.

I do understand. What I do not understand is why the Poles love the Russians who did the same thing to the Poles, and seized half of Poland. The Russians are also responsible, and rather then 'liberators' turned Poland into a puppet state, for the greater part of the last century.

During the closing phases of WW2, when the russians arrived in germany, most people fled anyways. Other things that happened (and i once had a terrible nightmare about this) were whole families ´going into the lake´, meaning drowning themselves, to escape russian revenge. Germany had started a war of extermination against russia - and russia wanted to make sure, that they would not try this again, without knowing what it actually means.

Agreed. This does not absolve the Russians for what the Germans did. There is another approach, which is evident even now in the prosperity in the former west Germany.

I think the graph with the election results shows pretty well, that eastern prussians had as much guilt in the whole affair as Dresdeners, Hamburgians, or any other german population, most of which recieved their punishment in one form or the other as well - if not that harsh in many cases, i will admit.

Not all Germans were responsible. Many of German extraction opposed Hitler, even in East Prussia. Did Russia bother to sift those who were guilty from those who were innocent?

That polish-german and russian-german relations have been improved so much since these horrible events is awesome. I think, it´s not too much to say, that the german and polish people are, despite some minor political turbulences, friends today. Polish people live here in my house, in fact. There is no way we will allow some map oddity to change that to what it once was again. If russia was to abandon north-eastern prussia today, it would be like that last piece of Pizza, that nobody would want out of courtesy, probably - neither Poland nor Germany would take it, out of fear, it could offend the other.

I'm not saying that this relationship should change, I think an important part of reconciliation will be the restoration of Koenigsberg, rather then transforming it into an armoured cold-war era relic from the past. This is why I want to see it transferred back to Germany from Russia who uses it as a military extension into the heart of Europe.

[Ben Kenobi]

That would have saved the world a hell of troubles and the jewish people would have gotten their land from those who actually owed them

The Persians who were the ones who expelled them in the first place?

Jews have a claim to Israel. They wanted Israel, not land on the german baltic coast. Is it better that those who owe them give them their pound of flesh, or to fulfill their hopes and dreams?

[Dr Strangelove]

We were in the war long before you folks got ready.

You weren't doing so well were you?

[Ben Kenobi]

You weren't doing so well were you?

We were allied with the French. What can you say? The kiss of death.

[Dr Strangelove]

Hum, Democratic Republics rarely are.

OK, How about "Democratic Federation of German Republics"?

[Traianvs]

This is what Germany should be today if there was any justice in the free world:

Such a state would nowadays be a contender for world superpower. Incorporating the economic powerhouses of Europe except Britain, phew we're damn lucky that didn't hold out after all

[Traianvs]

Jews have a claim to Israel. They wanted Israel, not land on the german baltic coast. Is it better that those who owe them give them their pound of flesh, or to fulfill their hopes and dreams?

That's open to debate. They have not been the majority for nearly 2000 years in Israel, and in fact the Jews were not the original inhabitants. They settled in Canaan with other Canaan settlements mixed in between. They were the dominant people there for less than a 1000 years. Arabs had been dominant for much longer

[Unimatrix11]

Well, Kenobi, of course you are absolutely entitled to your own opinion, but still i can gurantee you, that Kaliningrad/Königsberg wont be german - in our lifetimes at least. And i can only repeat: Germany doesnt want it back. Now, if you want it, that´s more or less moot wishfull thinking, since, as long as you are not a german citizen, you wont have any say on the matter (and even if the germans wanted it, there would still be the ´minor´ problem of the russians agreeing). But, since our migration law is still based on ´blood´, returning to germany is rather easy for anyone, who can proove german ancestery.

@Dr. Strangelove: Mordor

I really dont want to get into this israeli thing too much - but alas it was me who brought it up. Suffice it to say, that you can not always get all of what you want. See, Hitler wanted his ´Lebensraum´ - problem was: there were already people living there... Now, the german baltic coast is rather sparsely populated, even today (including what is polish now). Evacuating it, right after the war, would have been feasible, as germany was utterly vanquished, morally as well as else wise. Actually, i would have led anyone evacuated through a concentration camp (and the allies did actually force civiliains to have a look at it themselves, occasionally) on their way to their new homes, so that they knew why this was done. When Mr. Achmedenijad (sp?), the pres of iran, denies the holocaust, it is a very offending statement, but if he says, that if it happened, it should not be the arabs paying for what the germans did, it makes a lot of sense to me. Even today, i would offer the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern to settle the issue (and, yes, i am aware, that it would be totally delusional to expect the israelis to leave palestine and resettle to germany out of all places - but a return of Kaliningrad/Königsberg to germany is not all that much less irrealistic, actually).