Trial begins in slaying of transgender woman

[Q Classic]

"For all we know" sounds like an appeal to ignorance to me, Boris. Are there actual facts involved?

Actually, yes. All embryos are, by default, female; at a certain point during development, the SRY gene on the Y chromosome may be triggered; this causes the development of the testes, which, if everything goes well, leads to a male.

Any mutations or malfunctions in the expression of that gene, and things turn out very, very differently. Since it's really only that gene on the Y chromosome that determines sex, its alteration generally leads to an XY genotype displaying female characteristics, developing as a (sterile) female.

That does not mean, however, that the individual is actually a female; since the chromosomes contain genes for many other things, and since the Y chromosome contains different types of genes than an X chromosome...

[Lorizael]

...transphobia...

Mother of God do I hate that word.

[Q Classic]

It sounds odd, I'll admit. in lieu of a better word, though...

[Q Classic]

I don't see what's disrespectful about calling Justin what he was. A male.

Angie's gender, however, wasn't.

What "she" are we talking about again?

The murder victim. Discounting this is about as respectful as asking, "What 'humans' died from AIDS in the 80s?" or "What 'humans' were imprisoned in Guantanamo?"

If we are trying to refer to the guy in the OP, I'm fairly certain there was something about the pics the meth head found that caused him to be suspicious of the guy pretending to be a girl who had just given him a blowjob.

Suspicions, mind you, that the guy either didn't have or notice, until those specific pictures showed up.

Then there's the fact of the penis.

Unless nudity is a frequent and very common component of "outward appearance", then I don't know how useful this is? Most guys I know don't walk around with their peckers hanging out, and most women I know don't walk around with their vajayjays exposed.

The existence of a penis is something that's a private matter (so to speak) that only becomes an "outward appearance" during certain acts and behaviors.

(If the murdered did have other sex with Angie other than oral, it boggles the mind, though, that he'd not have noticed...)

[Lorizael]

It sounds odd, I'll admit. in lieu of a better word, though...

Oh, don't mind me. That word just happens to be responsible for destroying my relationship with one of my brothers.

Aside from the fact that the literal meaning comes to something along the lines of "a fear of being on the other side," I think all the various -phobia words are just about as damaging to good relations between communities as ****** and *** are.

Elok is a reasonable, intelligent guy. Calling him "transphobic" is so not going to help this debate.

[Jon Miller]

I really don't see how it is possible to not see the victim as delusional.

JM

[Elok]

Okay, I've been giving matters some more thought during my odious three-hour shift at work today. Two conclusions:

A. I've actually stated this before, but it bears repeating that transgendered rights and gay rights are entirely different matters, despite their conflation. Homosexuality involves unusual sexual activities, ie an entirely private act, whereas the transgendered continually and publicly advertise a falsehood that, like it or not, has some bearing on how they are treated. Even in mere friendships between men and women there's usually some element of sexual tension to give things spice. This isn't some trivial play like dying your hair or stuffing your underwear or something, it's significant even in nonsexual contexts.

I understand, given incidents like the OP, why they might want to hide it, but if they have some sort of right to decide their own gender, aren't we equally owed the right to know and decide for ourselves? Don't give me some hooey about being "insecure in my masculinity" or whatever, nobody likes being lied to. And face it, this whole incident would probably not have happened if s/he had been honest up front about his/her, uh, genital status. There should at least be some sort of small, discreet sign you can give to let the world know what you were born as.

B. Come to think of it, I have worked with someone who was both a liar and, in a certain sense, a madman. His name was Zakk (yes, he spelled it that way, which gives you an idea what sort of person he was), and he was a pathological liar. He endlessly spouted outrageous BS about himself; by the age of twenty or so, he ostensibly had completed two tours of duty in Iraq, undergone two years of "army knife training," and slit a number of Iraqi throats. Most people found it annoying, but I wound up seeing it as almost cute, in a way. I never bothered to contradict him, just nodded with each new absurdity and smothered my grin. It was like watching my two-year-old nephew try to fib.

And I think that's about all I could offer to a transsexual: smile-and-nod acceptance. It's hard to say, since I've never been in that position, but generally I prefer that people be honest about their disagreements with me instead of patronizing. I hate it when people try to "handle" me that way (though I had no choice with Zakk--it was no good trying to argue). I'm not suggesting that I should confront a hypothetical tranny coworker and call him/her a freak/pervert/mutant/whatever, but what's wrong with quietly letting him/her know that you cannot think of him/her as a woman (should the subject come up) and leaving it at that?

[Boris Godunov]

"For all we know" sounds like an appeal to ignorance to me, Boris. Are there actual facts involved?

Funny, I'd say you were appealing to ignorance by insisting that all transgendered people are insane when there isn't the evidence to support such an assertion.

As for your scenario, I would probably end the friendship myself. I am not comfortable around liars or madmen. Well, maybe I could get used to it if s/he had been honest up front. I'm not sure. But being around lunatics would just make me too uncomfortable.

Ok, so you'd be a total dick. Your perogative, I suppose. How horrifically shallow to end a friendship because someone does something completely unrelated to you, harms no one and is frankly not your business. I see no difference between this and someone ending a friendship because he found out a friend was gay, or Jewish for that matter.

[Q Classic]

Elok is a reasonable, intelligent guy. Calling him "transphobic" is so not going to help this debate.

I am, however, applying his logic here; I am calling a spade a spade. I'm not suggesting that, on the whole, that he's a bad person, or that he's necessarily transphobic; I'm saying those actions themselves are transphobic.

[Jon Miller]

So transphobia means not enabling delusion? In that case I don't see how it is a bad thing?

Me, personally, I am fine being friends with delusional people. I just desire to know what their delusions are, and acknowledge them in my dealings with them, so that I don't get led into situations that I don't want to be in.

JM

[Q Classic]

I do realize I'm not going to convince Elok; I'm perfectly willing to say that this is a point where we'll have to agree to disagree (even if I'm right ).

I will say that I don't think that the leap from gay rights to transgendered rights is all that far; gays are, in general, a bit genderqueer anyway.

Though, one note: "Tranny" usually refers to transvestites, not transexuals. They're not actually one and the same.

Finally:

Even in mere friendships between men and women there's usually some element of sexual tension to give things spice.

I've never really encountered this, actually, so I'll have to disagree there.

[Q Classic]

So transphobia means not enabling delusion? In that case I don't see how it is a bad thing?

No. I'm specifically referring to Elok's hypothesized actions should a friend that he has turn out to be transsexual--to the point of breaking off a friendship with them, coupled with a direct avoidance of them, and considering it a "delusion" when it is not.

[Jon Miller]

It is clearly the definition of delusion, when physical reality doesn't meet with mental reality, that is a delusion.

Clear fact.

I agree that the stopping being friends is a bit questionable. That isn't so much transphobia as a dislike of being friends with the delusional? I know plenty of people who are similar. How many people choose not to be friends with someone who thinks that the Jews are the cause of all the banking problems, for example?

JM

[Jon Miller]

By the way, how things are going I think we need new words:

How about timale and dimale to complement female and male? These are just ideas, as a not-transexual I am probably not the best to come up with the words. Then people can express properly who they are, be honest with themselves and others.

Maybe this would clear up some of the tragedy that is inherent in transexuals currently?

I will leave the pronouns to others.

JM

[Q Classic]

It is clearly the definition of delusion, when physical reality doesn't meet with mental reality, that is a delusion.

Would you then agree that
-people who claim to have seen the miracles of a religion act in their lives to be delusional?
-the personas people display online, particularly in games, are delusional, as they do not line up to physical reality?

Clear fact.

Not quite. It's considered a delusion in the DSM-IV, when it oughtn't; by a reductionist definition of 'delusion', it qualifies, but so do a great many other things that we as a society do not consider delusional.

This is where it really starts getting into semantics, and thus isn't productive.

How about timale and dimale to complement female and male?

I'm not sure what those are supposed to represent, but they do have the words 'transman' for a female-to-male, and a 'transwoman' for a male-to-female.