Trial begins in slaying of transgender woman

[DinoDoc]

Thus, to treat you any differently wouldn't be all that proper, wouldn't you agree?

The critical difference between the situation here and and your examples is that Justin wasn't a girl.

but it would be courteous and respectful to at least refer to her and treat her as one.

You keep saying that but I still don't see what is respectful of dancing around the facts.

What I do know at this time, however, is that she knew herself to be a woman, not a man.

Biology and outward appearences notwithstanding of course.

[Boris Godunov]

Well, y'see, when the term "he" is also legitimately used to describe people who really ARE "he's" it implies a certain degree of dishonesty to use the same term for pretenders, especially when the term is plainly being used to imply that its object is a member of that same set. If we're using racial examples, suppose I feel very strongly that I should have been black. I change my name to Jamal, since that "sounds more black" to me, go around in blackface and address actual black people as "my nigga." Do they have the right to feel offended or even put off, when they know I'm being perfectly sincere about it?

Are you honestly saying you're offended by someone being transgendered on behalf of the male sex?

I'm not sure I'll ever understand that level of insecurity about gender.

[Jon Miller]

How is letting someone choose when they are wrong by physical fact not a valid problem with it?

I am fine with XXY choosing purely because it is so rare that introducing new language/etc seems unneeded. If they were as common as transexuals seem to be, I would come up with new definitions.

If transexuals want to come up with new words/definitions to refer to males who want to live like women, or women who want to live like men, they are welcome to do so. And I will use the new words to refer to them.

But to say that it is at all similar to the rare cases of XXY using one of the std sex pronouns is ridiculous.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Are you honestly saying you're offended by someone being transgendered on behalf of the male sex?

I'm not sure I'll ever understand that level of insecurity about gender.

The person saying that they are a female when they have a dick/etc is certainly an issue...

JM

[Elok]

Are you honestly saying you're offended by someone being transgendered on behalf of the male sex?

I'm not sure I'll ever understand that level of insecurity about gender.

Er, no, I hadn't meant for the analogy to be taken that literally. It's just that you used race as an example first, so I went with it as a previously overlooked option to demonstrate why we should not feel obligated to address/refer to people however they choose to be addressed/referred to, no matter how preposterous the label they choose.

So the black thing didn't work for you. How about this: I want you to refer to me as "HRH/His Holiness Elok, PhD, MD, etc." That's right, I'm not only a member of the British Royal Family, I'm also the Pope, and have several advanced degrees. It's just that the Vatican, Buckingham Palace, Yale, Oxford and a bunch of other respected institutions of higher learning worldwide happened to lose my papers. I'm also Halle Berry, by the by, so if you really need to make conversation you might mention whichever magazine most recently called me the Sexiest Woman Alive.

No, wait, I'm God. That's right, I'm YHWH, having abandoned the burning-bush deal in favor of a skinny white guy in front of a computer. From now on, you refer to my opinions as His opinions, and me as He or Him. Do you have any real reason not to?

[Boris Godunov]

The difference is that there is actually a good deal of medical and psychological research that suggests that being transgender isn't merely a matter of mental illness. Genetics is a funny thing, and for all we know, there are cases where some switch gets thrown as the fetus is developing that gives the wrong genitalia to what otherwise would have become a female, or whatever. There are enough consistent differences between men and women across the spectrum of human society that I have to believe gender identity is not solely tied towards the genitals of one's birth.

Real world scenario: At your job, a woman begins working there and she's nice, friendly, and you grow to like her as a friend (nothing romantic). Someone then spills the beans to you: she was once a man! Would you honestly then refuse to call her "her" and insist on using male pronouns? Even though it will certainly offend the person and strain, if not end the friendship?

I'll tell you up front, if your answer is "yes," you'd be a dick. But frankly, I don't believe anyone here would really have the balls to do that anyway, so this all strikes me as bloviating.

[SlowwHand]

Er, no, I hadn't meant for the analogy to be taken that literally. It's just that you used race as an example first, so I went with it as a previously overlooked option to demonstrate why we should not feel obligated to address/refer to people however they choose to be addressed/referred to, no matter how preposterous the label they choose.

So the black thing didn't work for you. How about this: I want you to refer to me as "HRH/His Holiness Elok, PhD, MD, etc." That's right, I'm not only a member of the British Royal Family, I'm also the Pope, and have several advanced degrees. It's just that the Vatican, Buckingham Palace, Yale, Oxford and a bunch of other respected institutions of higher learning worldwide happened to lose my papers. I'm also Halle Berry, by the by, so if you really need to make conversation you might mention whichever magazine most recently called me the Sexiest Woman Alive.

No, wait, I'm God. That's right, I'm YHWH, having abandoned the burning-bush deal in favor of a skinny white guy in front of a computer. From now on, you refer to my opinions as His opinions, and me as He or Him. Do you have any real reason not to?

I had no idea that you were insane.

[Elok]

"For all we know" sounds like an appeal to ignorance to me, Boris. Are there actual facts involved?

As for your scenario, I would probably end the friendship myself. I am not comfortable around liars or madmen. Well, maybe I could get used to it if s/he had been honest up front. I'm not sure. But being around lunatics would just make me too uncomfortable.

[Lorizael]

As for your scenario, I would probably end the friendship myself. I am not comfortable around liars or madmen.

Madwomen.

[Elok]

Fine, madpersons. Madpeople. Persons of Different Relationships with Reality. Take your pick.

[Lorizael]

Reality and I broke up awhile back.

[Q Classic]

Q, it's a matter of principle for me, not of relative effort. I'm not going to play along with somebody else's delusion. That's ridiculous and I won't do it.

I don't think it's a delusion.

The bit about vampires not being real, etc. is irrelevant, since the transgendered aren't whatever sex they weren't born as any more than they are vampires, werewolves, chickens, James Bond, or whoever or whatever they may think they are.

The problem with your comparisons here is that they're all fictional. That is relevant, and dismissive.

[Q Classic]

You keep saying that but I still don't see what is respectful of dancing around the facts.

So my being respectful around religious people and not calling a spade a spade, dancing around the fact that their groups can easily be seen as a "cult" based around "superstition"...

That's being disrespectful to them? Even if, in general, what they do causes little harm to me, and the cost of courteousness is minimal?

Biology and outward appearences notwithstanding of course.

Actually by outward appearances, she didn't look all that masculine.

[Q Classic]

As for your scenario, I would probably end the friendship myself. I am not comfortable around liars or madmen. Well, maybe I could get used to it if s/he had been honest up front. I'm not sure. But being around lunatics would just make me too uncomfortable.

So, in other words, the transgendered are delusional lunatics that make you uncomfortable to the point where you'd end a friendship.

I do not think I'll be able to change your mind about that, but as long as you know that that's the textbook definition of transphobia...

[DinoDoc]

Even if, in general, what they do causes little harm to me, and the cost of courteousness is minimal?

I don't see what's disrespectful about calling Justin what he was. A male.

Actually by outward appearances, she didn't look all that masculine.

What "she" are we talking about again? If we are trying to refer to the guy in the OP, I'm fairly certain there was something about the pics the meth head found that caused him to be suspicious of the guy pretending to be a girl who had just given him a blowjob. Then there's the fact of the penis.