IDF Fashion Statements

[Elok]

Eh, my POV on the Israeli-Palestinian mess is that both sides do terrible things. I'm inclined to feel sorry for both, though due to the disproportionate losses I naturally find myself feeling more for the Arabs. On the one hand, I can hardly condone the wretched status of Palestinians living in human zoos, the indiscriminate airstrikes, or the blatantly illegal settlements. On the other, I don't imagine I would be feeling too charitable if people kept firing missiles at my country and hiding from retaliation behind civilians. Especially after years and years and years of it.

I'm not on either "side," and I have no interest in who acted like a barbarian dickwad first, but my reading of the situation is that the ball is in Palestine's court now, and has been for a while. They need to rally around a leader who can speak for them and make them honor any ceasefire made before any kind of meaningful agreement can be reached. That's about it.

[chequita guevara]

Most of the T-shirts in the articles were purchased and worn by the soldiers in their spare time, without any involvement of official military advice, and without any army ability to supervise them.

You might want to reread the part about getting permission from superiors.

I understand that English is not your first language, but one would think that you would understand what time period verb tenses are taken to refer to.

Ten years ago isn't significantly in the past as far as rules of conduct go. Siro is quite right to point out the conduct of NATO in the dismemberment of Yugoslavia.

[KrazyHorse]

Care to explain?

Unless this sentence

discusses some new standards, adopted fresh after the Yugoslavia campaign.

And you failed to mention that they don't apply to the large quantities of innocent civilians killed in Afghanistan, due to NATO action there. Certainly, not only due to US behavior.

If you're going to equate the way the wars in Afghanistan and Yugo were conducted with the IDF's behaviour then I'm going to assume you're cool with me equating the IDF with Hamas.

[chequita guevara]

Are you then equating NATO with Hamas?

[chequita guevara]

stupid dps

[Sirotnikov]

You might want to reread the part about getting permission from superiors.

I don't need to because unlike you:
a) I read it in hebrew, two weeks ago.
b) I actually served in the IDF and know how such T-shirts are ordered and bought.

90% of the time, they are ordered with absolutely no supervision from staff, in the soldier's free time.

Not only that, the staff can't really tell people what T-shirts the can or can't buy. Custom single-color T-shirt prints are dirt cheap, and you can get a group of 20 people, and order a T-shirt for 6$. I have probably 5 like those in my closet.

The only thing staff can do, is punish people for wearing that T-shirt on base territory. This is rarely practiced, though, and soldiers rarely wear the T-shirts on base, except for sleeping / sports.

If you're going to equate the way the wars in Afghanistan and Yugo were conducted with the IDF's behaviour then I'm going to assume you're cool with me equating the IDF with Hamas.

Beyond threatening me with sharing a similar view to Mobious (which is certainly scary, and unexpected from you), can you actually prove your point, regarding the difference between IDF and NATO conduct in LIC/ urban warfare scenarios?

The NATO campaign in Yugoslavia, as far as I know, knowingly targets in civilian areas, and semi-civilian critical infrastructure (fuel, power, transportation), all very similar to the IDF conduct.

NATO also had its share of mistaken attacks on hospitals, citizens, orphanages and what not.

The only difference may be the better personal discipline of NATO soldiers, compared to IDF soldiers, which is sad, but understandable since IDF is not a professional army and has (too) lax discipline and an inability to screen people.

So what exactly are you referring to?

[Sirotnikov]

Speaking of stupid statements printed on T-Shirts,

here are some statements made by Chegitz and Kid in the veterans thread, which they defended fiercely.
I'm sure they'll order a copy of:

[chequita guevara]

I never said that you waste of sperm.

[Kidlicious]

Siro,

Way to take things out of context on a continual basis.

[KrazyHorse]

Are you then equating NATO with Hamas?

Yes, because apparently we're in a world where every bad thing is equal.

[chequita guevara]

Given there's quite a bit of evidence that the IDF was deliberately targeting civilians, I wouldn't agree that NATO and the IDF are equivalent. Hamas is just firing weapons randomly at Israel, not hitting anything most of the time. Frankly, Hamas kills a lot less people than either.

[Sirotnikov]

Yes, because apparently we're in a world where every bad thing is equal.

Answer the question I posted above.

On the basis of what criteria do you determine NATO to be superior in its warfare conduct than the IDF?

[KrazyHorse]

On the basis of harm per objective accomplished.

The IDF chooses to make life miserable for people in areas it invades/occupies. It prevents humanitarian aid from reaching them based on specious security claims. It uses tactics (f.e. bulldozing the houses of families of terror suspects) most definitely not acceptable to NATO.

[Sirotnikov]

Frankly, Hamas kills a lot less people than either.

For the 1000th time, the amount of people killed, without further context, is NOT A VALID comparison criteria for judging intent. The only thing one could deduct is that Israeli weapons and missile shelters are good, while the Hamas weapons and shelters are crap. Deducing intentions from this is crap.

[chequita guevara]

Given that Hamas knows it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with its weapons, while the IDF deliberately targets medics, I think we can infer quite a bit.