IDF Fashion Statements

[Arrian]

Sure, they're not right in the head and perhaps that's understandable. But, seeing as they are members of the IDF, being messed up in the head this way is a problem, dontcha think?

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Anyone who says to themselves, "I want to kill babies and get the T-shirt" is messed up in the head already.

[KrazyHorse]

Sure, they're not right in the head and perhaps that's understandable. But, seeing as they are members of the IDF, being messed up in the head this way is a problem, dontcha think?

-Arrian

You're saying this as though we didn't already know that Israel does not conform to the standards we have for civilized nations.

The IDF uses tactics and exhibits behaviours that would be unacceptable to the armies of Western Europe and North America (outside of some recent examples in the US).

So do the Palestinian terror orgs. The two are not, of course, morally equivalent. But there is nobody in the region who can truly claim to be sitting with the angels.

[SpencerH]

Young soldiers are not usually noted for their political correctness. So what?

[KrazyHorse]

Most Western armies would stop their soldiers from behaving like this.

[Sprayber]

JERUSALEM - Israel's military condemned soldiers for wearing T-shirts of a pregnant woman in a rifle's cross-hairs with the slogan "1 Shot 2 Kills" and another of a gun-toting child with the words, "The smaller they are, the harder it is".

The T-shirts were worn by some Israeli Defence Force soldiers to mark the end of basic training and other military courses, the newspaper Haaretz said.

The appearance of the T-shirts followed allegations of misconduct by Israeli troops during the three-week Gaza war which ended on January 18.

Palestinian officials say about 1400 Palestinians were killed, most of them civilians. Thirteen Israelis died, three of them civilians.

The army said it would not tolerate the T-shirts and would take disciplinary action against the soldiers involved, although it was not clear how many wore the shirts or how widely they were distributed.

Haaretz showed pictures of five shirts and said they were made at the unit level - indicating they were made for small numbers of troops, perhaps several dozen at a time. It said they were worn by an unknown number of enlisted men in different units. The Tel Aviv factory that made many of the shirts, Adiv, refused to comment.

The military sought to portray the T-shirts as "tasteless" humour and said that the shirts were "not in accordance with IDF values".

They were not manufactured or sanctioned by the military.

Few in the Palestinian territories appeared to be aware of the T-shirts. In Gaza, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said it reflected the "brutal mentality among the Zionist soldiers and the Zionist society".

Israel's military has come under increasing scrutiny after soldiers alleged that some troops opened fire hastily and killed Palestinian civilians during the Gaza war - including children - possibly because they believed they would not be held accountable under relaxed open-fire regulations.

The military has ordered a criminal inquiry into soldiers' accounts published in a military institute's newsletter.

Military chief of staff, Lieutenant General Gabi Ashkenazi, defended his troops.

"I tell you that this is a moral and ideological Army. I have no doubt that exceptional events will be dealt with," Ashkenazi said.

Gaza "is a complex atmosphere that includes civilians and we took every measure possible to reduce harm to the innocent".

- AP

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I'm surprised that it has taken this long for someone from poly to post about this. That's the real shocking thing. Oh, I looked but couldn't find a link to Hamas officials speaking out against the killing of Jews. Can anyone else find that one?

[Sirotnikov]

The IDF uses tactics and exhibits behaviours that would be unacceptable to the armies of Western Europe and North America (outside of some recent examples in the US).

Re-he-he-eally?

The refugees thought they had found shelter. They were wrong. The air strike didn't spare their lives. Over 100 died. This is not the story of the tragic bombing of the school in Gaza. This is the story of the bombing of Korisa in former Yugoslavia. The strikes were carried out by NATO planes. This happened less than ten years ago, on May 13, 1999. There's more. On April 12, NATO planes killed, accidentally of course, twelve civilians. On April 14, they killed 70 refugees. On April 27, another sixteen civilians were killed. On May 1, twenty-three died in a bus bombing. On May 6, sixteen were killed by a cluster bomb. On May 19, a Belgrade hospital was bombed; three died. On May 30, eleven died when a bridge was bombed. On the very same day, an old-age home was hit and twenty inhabitants were killed. The next day another eleven died. Around the same time, the Chinese embassy was bombed, and a missile flew 30 miles off course and hit the Bulgarian capital of Sofia. "It was a mistake, sorry" was the NATO spokesperson's standard response.

This is what happens in war. It's sad; it's unfortunate. And Europeans should look back, not to the distant past, to the bombing of Dresden, but to the recent past, before they wag their finger at Israel. Because Israel hasn't reached, and won't reach, even a hundredth of the number of innocent people killed by European democracies, in just wars.

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=2521

Don't get me wrong - I'm the first one to feel sorry for IDF crude and stupid behavior. And I'm the first one to criticize foul and racist behavior by IDF soldiers, or by my former-soldiers friends. You're welcome to check my facebook feed.

But there is a disproportionate defamation of IDF tactics, as well as stupid behavior of its soldiers. And it has to stop. The reason for that is that every conflict with IDF participation is being over-reported, and micro-analysed, the way no single conflict in history has been.

Regarding the thread topic - like Elok said, you take a bunch of 18 year olds and put them under constant stress, where each palestinian is a potential enemy - and they'll end up being hateful. I hate it, and I think we should disengage, for our sake.

[Arrian]

You're saying this as though we didn't already know that Israel does not conform to the standards we have for civilized nations.

I'm talking to Elok, who apparently takes the above view, or sounded like he was.

The IDF uses tactics and exhibits behaviours that would be unacceptable to the armies of Western Europe and North America (outside of some recent examples in the US).

So do the Palestinian terror orgs. The two are not, of course, morally equivalent. But there is nobody in the region who can truly claim to be sitting with the angels.

I know, I agree. I don't know what gave you the impression that I didn't.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Siro,

Do you really believe you can disengage?

-Arrian

[Sirotnikov]

Most Western armies would stop their soldiers from behaving like this.

Most of the T-shirts in the articles were purchased and worn by the soldiers in their spare time, without any involvement of official military advice, and without any army ability to supervise them.

Unlike in western armies, the IDF soldiers spend most of their weekends and spare time in civilian clothes, doing what ever they want, and the IDF does not have the ability to police that. Discipline is lax. It's crap, but it isn't easy to change.

[KrazyHorse]

Re-he-he-eally?

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=2521

.

I understand that English is not your first language, but one would think that you would understand what time period verb tenses are taken to refer to.

[Sprayber]

Sure, they're not right in the head and perhaps that's understandable. But, seeing as they are members of the IDF, being messed up in the head this way is a problem, dontcha think?

-Arrian

Huge problem. Things like this makes it more difficult for others to do their job. The constant state of hostilities is bound to create intense hatred from the soldiers but nothing excuses being stupid. No matter what the higher brass might say will undo the damage.

[KrazyHorse]

I wasn't really arguing with you, Arrian. I was using your post as a jumping-off point.

[Sirotnikov]

Siro,

Do you really believe you can disengage?

-Arrian

Well we need to find a smart way to do this, without too much humiliation for us, and without strengthening the hawks in Israel or on the Palestinian street.

I doubt how much Nethanyahu can acheive, having bolted himself to the more hawkish parties. He may count on Livni's support for the 2nd part of his term.

Btw, it has been under reported, but following the last year of relative calm, the IDF central command has began lifting hundreds of blockades, finally restoring Palestinian movement freedom inside their territories.

I hope it continues, even though there were several terrorist attacks in the last two months, in Jerusalem and the WB, under-reported in world media.

Btw, an incredibly huge terrorist attack was foiled last minute, in my home town of Haifa, thanks to a faulty detonator. The investigation is under court imposed censorship, but the likely perpetrator is Hezbullah. This has also been unreported by world press.

[Sirotnikov]

I understand that English is not your first language, but one would think that you would understand what time period verb tenses are taken to refer to.

Care to explain?

Unless this sentence

You're saying this as though we didn't already know that Israel does not conform to the standards we have for civilized nations.

discusses some new standards, adopted fresh after the Yugoslavia campaign.

And you failed to mention that they don't apply to the large quantities of innocent civilians killed in Afghanistan, due to NATO action there. Certainly, not only due to US behavior.