Anarchy Applied to Family Life: Give Kids a Say

[Arrian]

Absolutely. I expect my friend's daughter will, by age 10, not be held down and smeared with sunscreen while she attempts to evade.

I also expect she won't kick and scream when it's time to change her diaper... because, you know, she won't be wearing one. Speaking of that, my friends always try to talk her into a diaper change. Sometimes they'll even let her drag it out a bit. But there is a limit to how much you can give there. Sometimes that diaper just needs to be changed. If it results in kicking and screaming, well, tough nuggies.

-Arrian

[Caligastia]

Reasoning with small children is futile, for the most part. Yes, there have been times when my 3-year-old has responded well to an explanation, but kids of that age just don't have a grasp of the concepts involved in most situations. Often, parents don't have time to sit down and provide lengthy explanations, and even if they did, the attention span of the child would not be long enough to take it all in. I had to laugh at the example of the parent saying "I want to go home now so we have enough time for dinner" to their child who is playing in the toy store. Ten to one the kid just keeps playing and ignores their parent.

[Jon Miller]

You know, if I am riding with my friend, I do my very best to not complain if they want to leave somewhere before/after me. Yeah, they should be considerate of my feelings. But they get to make the decision. It is their car.

JM

[Kidlicious]

You know, if I am riding with my friend, I do my very best to not complain if they want to leave somewhere before/after me. Yeah, they should be considerate of my feelings. But they get to make the decision. It is their car.

JM

You've made that point 3 times or something. That's not the reason why I insist on making final decisions in my family. I would think that any person who makes decisions for that reason is not a very good parent.

[OzzyKP]

Let's dispense with the cold weather example, and go with one that I think illustates the point even better:

Why dispense with the cold weather example? It wasn't an example I thought of, it was posed to me and I responded to it. Now instead of engage with my suggested solution everyone ignores it and either presents new examples or just goes back to talking points (not you) about how I'm a loon with no idea how things "really" work.

Is the goal to cycle through examples till you find one that stumps me?

Not trying to be hostile here, but if my ideas are so bad and impractical I'd hope folks would give some specific responses to my specific points instead of blasting me with generalities or moving the goal posts.

So before we dispense with Rufus' cold weather example can someone explain specifically why my suggestion is entirely impractical or unworkable or harmful? And if it isn't all that loony, can someone be fair enough to subtract some loon points from my running tally?

I'm also quite curious to hear people's thoughts on my earlier question of how we are expected to respond to irrational behavior in adults.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

So before we dispense with Rufus' cold weather example can someone explain specifically why my suggestion is entirely impractical or unworkable or harmful?

Ok, two reasons off the top of my head:

1) Sometime, waiting until the child realizes the need for something is waiting too long. Sounds like you grew up in Michigan; I grew up in Chicago. We both know that there are days in a Midwestern winter when allowing a child outside without a coat, even for a short time, would be an act of child endangerment. (I also just got back from two years of living on the equator, where the sunscreen example would work). And this is especially true because...

2) I can tell you from actual parenting experience that children at certain stages of development will do what's contrary to their own best interests (and even desires) in order to keep from admitting that they were wrong. Thus the child who insists she doesn't need a coat will keep on insisting that, even after she's cold, in order to derive the gratification of feeling autonomous and knowledgeable. I suspect every parent on this board, regardless of parenting style, has seen that move.

Kids are not stupid, and kids deserve the same level of respect adults get; these seem to be your major points, and on them we agree. But kids are, almost by definition, ignorant and immature, which is why societies ask people who (supposedly) aren't ignorant and immature to make decisions on the kids' behalf. A lot of parents do this badly, in no small part because they are ignorant and immature themselves; but the fundamental idea is sound, even if there are so many poor practitioners.

[Arrian]

Why dispense with the cold weather example? It wasn't an example I thought of, it was posed to me and I responded to it.

I dispensed with it because I'm not sure what you were thinking of as "cold." Are we talking about 40 degrees? 30? 20?

If the temp isn't crazy cold, yeah, sure, you could take the kid outside (but bring the jacket) and hope that the kid quickly realizes that the jacket is necessary. Sure. But if it's sufficiently cold, no, that's not an option. Further, I think Rufus is right about the real possibility of the child's stubborness overcoming their discomfort, at least for a while. Long enough, perhaps, for it to be a problem.

I wasn't trying to dodge your answer to the cold thing, I just thought "cold" was a bit of a broad category. I thought the sunburn scenario was more focused. That's all.

-Arrian

[OzzyKP]

As for the kid's stubbornness, it seems the more of a fuss you make, as the parent, the more intransigent they will be. If you spend 10 minutes arguing about putting a coat on before caving in and letting her go out without one, then all that argument & debate will make her more stubborn. Then she has something to prove. Or if there is a pre-existing and continual contest of wills in the relationship, this will be another battle.

The easier you make it for her to change her mind, the more likely she will.

Not to say that you have to acquiesce to her, as the article seems to suggest, but be a good chess player by anticipating conflicts and having ready solutions handy to avoid them before they start.

[Caligastia]

Just this morning, my 3.5 year old son was refusing to walk into his daycare with me even though it was pouring rain outside. I was holding my 1 year old who is getting over mild pneumonia, and we were all getting wet. So I physically forced my son to come inside with us (kicking and screaming). Does anyone seriously think I had any other option?