GM's Saab Declares Bankruptcy

[Asher]

No, the only way to do that is to make cars that people want to buy!

One of the many reasons for GM's failures is a lack of genuine quality, in addition to lack of vision/reasonable designs. Due to GM's insanely high labour costs compared to their competitors, corners have to be cut in other areas -- such a reasonable design features and quality constraints. I've posted about this in many other threads, but my brother worked for engineering companies that designed components for Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda in different cars. The difference in cost requirements (and therefore reliability requirements) for the same part between Ford/GM and Toyota/Honda is striking. Ford/GM would repeatedly send the part designs back insisting they were too expensive so they must make more compromises (thinner, cheaper plastic, remove some feature, etc) while they're already significantly cheaper than the parts Honda/Toyota use.

The UAW does more than just take money, the money they take is from a zero-sum formula determining the cost of the car. If the UAW is responsible for significantly higher labour costs compared to the Big Three's competitors, the corners have to be cut elsewhere. Long-term, this is why they're hurting. Anyone who knows anything knows the Big Three quality is worse than the imports. There's a reason it took the Big Three so long to switch to DOHC engines after the imports already did. The UAW is far more responsible for this situation than you want to understand.

And yes, the management/engineering themselves at GM and the other companies deserve a ****load of blame also. It really was a cluster**** of ineptitude, but the #1 driver behind all of this is the UAW.

[Asher]

Not only the top brass, but the entire management tree has been a problem at GM. There are too many country club memberships and not enough folks who are fanatical about cars.

That is not necessarily the problem, Dan.

Do you think Toyota and Honda have lots of management staff "fanatical about cars"? I'm pretty sure most of them don't even drive, they get driven in boring limos.

It comes down to what I think is pride. I take pride in my work, I know many people who are good at what they do take pride in their work. If you work in engineering, for example, at GM you're told to cut as many corners as possible to lower the cost on the car. You're essentially being told to make crap but add a nice coat of paint. There's little room for pride at the Big Three, and that comes across very blatantly with their mainstream vehicles. Ever driven a Ford Taurus?

[Zoid]

How the hell can it be the law of the market jungle with the union is preventing market forces from acting?

There should be NO government intervention here (GM's management is inept, their engineers are incompetent, the UAW is insanely greedy).

One way to rectify the situation is to bust the UAW in addition to shaking up the management.

I would argue that the UAW is part of the market jungle, as in they're a factor in the equation. Of course it would be easier to solve he equation if you remove a part of the problem, but reality doesn't work that way...

[Zoid]

One of the many reasons for GM's failures is a lack of genuine quality, in addition to lack of vision/reasonable designs. Due to GM's insanely high labour costs compared to their competitors, corners have to be cut in other areas -- such a reasonable design features and quality constraints. I've posted about this in many other threads, but my brother worked for engineering companies that designed components for Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda in different cars. The difference in cost requirements (and therefore reliability requirements) for the same part between Ford/GM and Toyota/Honda is striking. Ford/GM would repeatedly send the part designs back insisting they were too expensive so they must make more compromises (thinner, cheaper plastic, remove some feature, etc) while they're already significantly cheaper than the parts Honda/Toyota use.

The UAW does more than just take money, the money they take is from a zero-sum formula determining the cost of the car. If the UAW is responsible for significantly higher labour costs compared to the Big Three's competitors, the corners have to be cut elsewhere. Long-term, this is why they're hurting. Anyone who knows anything knows the Big Three quality is worse than the imports. There's a reason it took the Big Three so long to switch to DOHC engines after the imports already did. The UAW is far more responsible for this situation than you want to understand.

And yes, the management/engineering themselves at GM and the other companies deserve a ****load of blame also. It really was a cluster**** of ineptitude, but the #1 driver behind all of this is the UAW.

Well, boohoo. The evil workers are forcing GM to design crappy cars, how dare they? Have they no shame or respect for the nessecities of car manufacturing?

[Asher]

I would argue that the UAW is part of the market jungle, as in they're a factor in the equation.

Nope, they don't have to be...the healthier Big Three competitors have one big thing in common: no UAW.

Of course it would be easier to solve he equation if you remove a part of the problem, but reality doesn't work that way...

If you fix one of the biggest parts of the problem, it goes a long way to helping...

[Asher]

Well, boohoo. The evil workers are forcing GM to design crappy cars, how dare they? Have they no shame or respect for the nessecities of car manufacturing?

It's a simple example of excessive extortion. The UAW has done too good a job for its members such that it's got a stranglehold on the Big Three. As a direct result of the UAW's outrageous extortions, the Big Three are losing their relevancy and very shortly, their solvency. Too much of a good thing is not a good thing. The UAW has gone too far, too often, and they're sinking the companies who use the UAW while the companies that don't have UAW employees take advantage.

It's simpleton logic that unions are always good. Too many people are oblivious to the fact that when a union gets too powerful, they're just the opposite extreme from having no unions at all. The UAW is exploiting the Big Three, an opposite extreme from the case of the Big Three exploiting the autoworkers themselves (not that I think this ever really happened). Why can't you see it?

[Asher]

I would never, ever buy a Big Three car for one reason alone: a lack of genuine quality. Now Oerdin can quote the bull**** JD Power & Associates ****, or find one of the many excuses for the poor resale value of the Big Three cars, but the reality is their quality standards are NOT up to par. A car is a huge investment and an intelligent shopper will look at it as such -- look at the reliability post-warranty and look at the resale values. I know many other people who have the same criteria. The Big Three could hire more visionaries with really sexy cars and really efficient engines, but as long as the quality isn't there they're not going to get my dollars. And as long as the UAW raises the Big Three labour costs as they do now (even with the reported concessions), there will continue to be corners cut to be price competitive with the import brands.

They have two options to remedy this problem:
1) Bust the UAW or somehow get them to make MASSIVE concessions
2) Raise their prices to raise their quality of the product and somehow convince Americans that they should pay the American price premium to pay the fat union workers because it's patriotic to do so

Now, I'm a realistic: Neither will happen. But this is precisely why the Big Three are on spirals towards oblivion, some faster than others.

[Wiglaf]

You are a fool. Nothing gets better mpg than a Ford Pickup, and it is good for carrying large quantities of people, whether they are workers, hot women, or workers. The problem you have is that everyone cool in Canadian schools hates Ford cars, creating a kind of group think as seen in the movie Clue.

[MrFun]

You are a fool. Nothing gets better mpg than a Ford Pickup, and it is good for carrying large quantities of people, whether they are workers, hot women, or workers. The problem you have is that everyone cool in Canadian schools hates Ford cars, creating a kind of group think as seen in the movie Clue.

Where the **** is your angry smilie, Wiggy? Seriously, there's no excuse.

[Asher]

You are a fool. Nothing gets better mpg than a Ford Pickup, and it is good for carrying large quantities of people, whether they are workers, hot women, or workers. The problem you have is that everyone cool in Canadian schools hates Ford cars, creating a kind of group think as seen in the movie Clue.

Ford is huge in Canada, especially Ontario where many of Ford's vehicles are made.

My uncle is a union supervisor at the Ford plant in St Thomas, Ontario...

PS: My brother was on the team that designed the foot-step and assisting handle on the new F-150s. The ones they talk about in commercials all the time. It's another reason why I know Ford doesn't have high quality standards, the development of those things was brutal due to Ford's constant demands to make it cheaper and cheaper...

[DanS]

This is hysterical...

City slickers!

Monday, February 23, 2009
Auto team drives imports
Fed task force has few new U.S. cars
David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON -- The vehicles owned by the Obama administration's auto team could reflect one reason why Detroit's Big Three automakers are in trouble: The list includes few new American cars.

Among the eight members named Friday to the Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry and the 10 senior policy aides who will assist them in their work, two own American models. Add the Treasury Department's special adviser to the task force and the total jumps to three.

The Detroit News reviewed public records to discover what many of the task force and staff members drove, but information was not available on all of the officials, and records for some states were not complete.

At least two task force members don't own a car, and there are still two open slots on the 10-member panel that will be filled by the secretaries of labor and commerce, who have not yet been appointed.

The co-chairs of the task force -- Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner and White House National Economic Council Director Lawrence Summers -- both own foreign automobiles.

Geithner owns a 2008 Acura TSX, registered in New York. He once owned a 1999 Honda Accord and a 2002 Acura MDX, according to public records.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090223/AUTO01/902230327

[Asher]

That speaks very highly for their intelligence.

I honestly question any intelligent car-guy who is dumb enough to buy Ford, GM, or Chrysler. They should know better.

[DanS]

Do you think Toyota and Honda have lots of management staff "fanatical about cars"?

Yes, at least about the Prius.

Japan to Pay Widow After Husband Dies of Overwork
Posted Nov 30, 07 8:37 AM CST in World

(Newser) – A Japanese court ruled today that the government must pay damages to the widow of a white-collar employee at Toyota who died from overwork, the AP reports. Kenichi Uchino had put in more than 80 hours of overtime per month for at least half a year before collapsing in his office and dying at age 30. His widow filed for compensation with the Labor Ministry but was rejected, a decision today's ruling overturns.

Karoshi, the Japanese phenomenon of death from overwork, has become increasingly prevalent since the government first recognized the problem in 1987. Yet only about half of the 303 applications for compensation filed in the last year for karoshi have been accepted. Toyota was not involved in today's suit and did not comment.

http://www.newser.com/story/12965/japan-to-pay-widow-after-husband-dies-of-overwork.html

[Asher]

That has more to do with Japanese culture and workethic than being fanatical about cars, Dan.

That guy probably took the subway to work each day like 99% of the other Japanese people.

[DanS]

Does Toyota, Japan even have a subway?