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Economists expect report of first deflation in 54 years

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  • Economists expect report of first deflation in 54 years

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/19/news...tion/index.htm

    Consumer prices may fall on an annual basis for the first time in more than 50 years. Is this the beginning of a deflationary spiral or just a blip?
    February 19, 2009: 2:48 PM ET


    Friday at 11 p.m. ET


    NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Prices are falling for just about everything these days.

    The government will report its key inflation index Friday morning, the Consumer Price Index, and economists believe the report is likely to show the first year-over-year drop in prices since 1955.

    But while shoppers might see that as good news, economists generally view this as a threat to an already struggling economy.

    That's because deflation, or a widespread drop in prices, is one of the most destructive forces that can hit an economy.

    Lower prices are one way businesses respond to the lack of demand for their products in a slowdown. But if companies can't make a profit selling their products at the lower price, they'll respond by cutting production and laying off more people.

    More job losses can cut even further into demand. But even if consumers have jobs and money, they're likely to hold off on purchases if they come to believe that prices will head even lower. All of which adds up to even more weakness in the economy.

    Deflation is most often associated with the Great Depression. In 1930, consumer prices fell 2.3% and plunged 9% a year later. Prices fell nearly 10% in 1932 before the rate of decline started to slow. Still, prices didn't turn higher again until 1934.

    The U.S. is nowhere close to that type of deflationary spiral just yet. Economists forecast that the year-over-year drop in January was just 0.1%

    Much of that decline has been driven by lower gas prices. But there is clear evidence that falling prices are spreading beyond the pump. The core CPI, which strips out food and energy prices, fell at a compounded annual rate of 0.3% in the fourth quarter of 2008.

    Worries grow about more salary cuts
    The potential economic pain that can be caused by deflation is so great that St. Louis Federal Reserve President James Bullard identified it in a speech Tuesday as the greatest risk facing the economy this year.

    "I think we face some risk -- at this point only a risk -- of sustained deflation," he said, adding that "ongoing deflation in the United States might be particularly pernicious."

    Some economists agree that deflation should now be a major concern.

    "I think we're on the precipice of outright, full-blown deflation and that we'll fall into that abyss by this summer," said Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Economy.com. "Given the pressures businesses are under to sell something, they'll have to cut prices and I think they will."

    Zandi said his biggest worry about deflation is that it may cause more employers to cut wages, which could lead to even lower prices down the road.

    Some companies have already begun to reduce salaries. General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) is cutting the pay of all of its remaining U.S. salaried staff between 3% and 10% as of May 1.

    "Right now millions of people are losing their jobs, and as painful as that is, it affects only a small fraction of 150 million workers," Zandi said. "If you're cutting wages broadly across 150 million people, that's a far bigger problem for the economy."

    Deflation or disinflation?
    But other economists argue that falling prices are not a significant threat to the economy.

    They point out that consumer prices fell in the mid-1950's, a relative period of prosperity. And they add that the current drop in prices may simply be a temporary decline due to an adjustment between supply and demand.

    "To have deflation, you have to have the price structure collapsing," said Rich Yamarone, director of economic research at Argus Research.

    "Disinflation is the D word we should be using," he added, meaning that he thinks prices won't rise dramatically going forward as opposed to continuing to fall.

    Yamarone says the steps taken by the Federal Reserve and Treasury to pump trillions into the nation's banking system will keep deflation from taking hold the way it did during the Great Depression and in Japan's "lost decade" that started in the 1990's.

    "Those policymakers did nothing for decades," he said. "We're throwing everything imaginable and several things that are unimaginable at the problem."

    But Yamarone concedes that prices for many products will be kept in check for awhile, partly because of weak demand in the near-term and demographic changes in the longer term.

    "There is too much capacity for everything right now -- too many malls, too many auto plants," he said "The Boomers are in the process of retiring and 60-year old Boomers don't need 2.5 cars in the driveway."
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  • #2
    Goes with the process. Will be at least a few more quarters of this. As to "deflationary spiral," this just represents words intended to engender fear. Reductions in output are what got Congress all stirred up to throw $1.5 trillion in real dollars at the problem in two increments, one Republican and one Democrat.
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    • #3
      It's a natural part of the business cycle. Deflation isn't a crisis - it has winners and losers. The winners are the sensible people who save money and minimize their debt. Reckless speculators who got us into this mess are going to be forced to pay back their debts with more valuable money than they expected, but that's not my problem.

      As long as prices drop, a decline in wages won't really matter. Money is not real. If you get paid half as many dollars, but each of those dollars buys twice as much stuff, you're as wealthy as you were before.
      John Brown did nothing wrong.

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      • #4
        Um, Felch, while I generally believe that small deflations/inflations are the normal cycle, a huge deflation leads to a cut in production, and then a cut in jobs. When unemployment is already high, this is a quite bad thing to add on top of that... while getting paid half as much to buy things half as expensive might be irrelevant, if you're getting paid nothing, that's not quite the same.
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        • #5

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          • #6
            Originally posted by snoopy369 View Post
            Um, Felch, while I generally believe that small deflations/inflations are the normal cycle, a huge deflation leads to a cut in production, and then a cut in jobs. When unemployment is already high, this is a quite bad thing to add on top of that... while getting paid half as much to buy things half as expensive might be irrelevant, if you're getting paid nothing, that's not quite the same.
            It's a business cycle, related to the ridiculous bull**** that's been going on the past few years. All these *******s who've been spending money they didn't have are the root cause of it. Without them, there wouldn't have been the inflation of the past few years. Now we're feeling a pinch. That's life. Fighting the pinch is only going to turn it into a punch.
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            • #7
              deflation

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Felch View Post
                It's a business cycle, related to the ridiculous bull**** that's been going on the past few years. All these *******s who've been spending money they didn't have are the root cause of it. Without them, there wouldn't have been the inflation of the past few years. Now we're feeling a pinch. That's life. Fighting the pinch is only going to turn it into a punch.
                So we're not supposed to feel bad for the people losing their jobs in droves, because some other people overspent and drove the business cycle off a cliff?

                You do understand that the point is deflation causes the (perhaps natural) downward trend to feed back on itself and push very far down, right? And just because something is a 'natural business cycle' doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it, just like we shouldn't try to defend ourselves from 'natural' hurricanes and 'natural' earthquakes?
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                • #9
                  I thought it was hyperinflation we were supposed to be scared of ATM, what with the barrage of federal stimulus money getting unloaded on the economy. Or are we supposed to be scared of both at once somehow?
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                  • #10
                    don't know. the article I posted is showing inflation. rising fuel costs etc as the main cause.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by snoopy369 View Post
                      So we're not supposed to feel bad for the people losing their jobs in droves, because some other people overspent and drove the business cycle off a cliff?

                      You do understand that the point is deflation causes the (perhaps natural) downward trend to feed back on itself and push very far down, right? And just because something is a 'natural business cycle' doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it, just like we shouldn't try to defend ourselves from 'natural' hurricanes and 'natural' earthquakes?
                      I feel bad for the people who are losing their jobs. When did I say different? My antipathy is towards the greedy bastards who got us into this. It's not just the banks, it's the people who took credit lines and mortgages they could never hope to afford. They're the cause of this crisis.

                      We defend ourselves from hurricanes and earthquakes by getting out of the way or taking shelter. We don't try to manage them with gigantic fans or by nuking fault lines. Earthquakes are the earth's way of releasing pent up pressure in continental plates. Deflation is the economy's way of releasing the pent up pressure caused by the inflation we'd been having. Trying to build up prices only further distorts prices and makes the pain last longer. Let nature, either weather or tectonics or economics, run its course. I would take shelter though.

                      The article Dis posted said that wholesale prices are up over the past month. It may be that this deflationary spiral is a mirage, and efforts to counter it will only result in excessive inflation. To get some perspective on all this, inflationdata.com says that current inflation (Dec. 2008 as calculated Jan. 16) is at .09%, which is still positive. So no need to panic just yet.
                      John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Felch View Post
                        It's a natural part of the business cycle. Deflation isn't a crisis - it has winners and losers. The winners are the sensible people who save money and minimize their debt. Reckless speculators who got us into this mess are going to be forced to pay back their debts with more valuable money than they expected, but that's not my problem.
                        So you want another great depression?

                        As long as prices drop, a decline in wages won't really matter. Money is not real. If you get paid half as many dollars, but each of those dollars buys twice as much stuff, you're as wealthy as you were before.
                        I'm not sure you've thought this through.

                        The economy runs on credit and debt. How many people who form the core of the earning population don't have long term debt? Many of them have student loans, but more have mortgages. If their income deflates, their long term debt does not.

                        Their "debt" is not independent of my "credit". Their debt is my credit. They are one and the same.

                        In our societies "saving" is more like lending your neighbour money to buy a house. It's all very well to say that savers will benefit, but the savers' money has already been lent to the borrowers, and is contingent on the borrowers being able to pay it back. It isn't like my money is actually in the bank, because the bank has lent it to other people. If their income deflates, they won't be able to pay the bank back and the bank can't pay me.

                        At some point, it is going to be rational for a person to simply walk away from their house and/or declare bankruptcy. Then the bank owns the house, and by extension so do I. But since prices have deflated, the house can't be sold for as much as the original buyer bought it for, and thus my savings are borked.

                        It would be different if most people saved their cash in an old sock under their mattress, but they don't. It's in banks, and has been lent to people who can't pay it back.
                        Only feebs vote.

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                        • #13
                          The economy runs on credit and debt. How many people who form the core of the earning population don't have long term debt? Many of them have student loans, but more have mortgages. If their income deflates, their long term debt does not.
                          It's in the interests of the lender to avoid foreclosure of someone who:

                          a) hasn't overbought.
                          b) has been regularly making payments.

                          The real troublesome ones are the student loans. There is no incentive to negotiate because there is no asset involved.

                          In our societies "saving" is more like lending your neighbour money to buy a house.
                          Saving is about having money in the bank should things turn badly. Not living paycheck to paycheck.

                          It's all very well to say that savers will benefit, but the savers' money has already been lent to the borrowers, and is contingent on the borrowers being able to pay it back.
                          Which is why people overextending themselves has bad consequences for all of us. Deflation is a good thing because prices get back to normal. No one my age can afford a house. Housing prices should fall so that they are in line with the incomes of today.

                          At some point, it is going to be rational for a person to simply walk away from their house and/or declare bankruptcy. Then the bank owns the house, and by extension so do I. But since prices have deflated, the house can't be sold for as much as the original buyer bought it for, and thus my savings are borked.
                          The lender is still responsible for the money that you loaned to them via your savings account. If lenders don't take adequate steps to protect this money, and they go under, then yes, you'll lose what you have there. However, if the deflation does not force your bank to go under, then you are just fine.

                          It would be different if most people saved their cash in an old sock under their mattress, but they don't. It's in banks, and has been lent to people who can't pay it back.
                          So the solution is what? Bail them out with the money that other people have saved up? 50 percent of those who have been bailed out default again. The long-term, and painful solution, is deflation such that housing becomes affordable again. The more money that is pitched at stopping the process is money that is simply burnt and wasted.
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                          • #14
                            Shut up, Ben.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post

                              Saving is about having money in the bank should things turn badly.
                              No. Saving via bank deposit is lending the bank your money so that they can lend it to other people. If you just want to save wealth, then keep money or gold in an old sock.

                              The lender is still responsible for the money that you loaned to them via your savings account. If lenders don't take adequate steps to protect this money, and they go under, then yes, you'll lose what you have there. However, if the deflation does not force your bank to go under, then you are just fine.
                              The problem is that the deflation will cause the bank to lose money, because it will cause people to walk away from promises that are equal to the savings of others. It need not end up with nothing, but it will not be able to pay me the full value of my deposit + interest. Who will be able to lend money if that happens?
                              Only feebs vote.

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