Pope gives poor sinners a second chance

[BeBMan]

Pope move ignites Holocaust row

Pope Benedict in Rome on 21/1/09
The Vatican seeks to separate the bishops' status from their views

The Pope has lifted the excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church of four bishops appointed by a breakaway archbishop more than 20 years ago.

One of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's appointees, Briton Richard Williamson, outraged Jews by saying the Nazi gas chambers did not exist.

Two of the other three appointees are French while the fourth is Argentinean.

Israel's envoy to the Vatican said the papal decision would "cast a shadow on relations with Jews".

"We have no intention of interfering in the internal workings of the Catholic Church, however, the eagerness to bring a Holocaust denier back into the Church will cast a shadow on relations between Jews and the Catholic Church," Mordechai Lewy told Reuters news agency.

Lefebvre, who died in 1991, rebelled against liberal reforms in the Church, such as the end of the Latin Mass.

He opposed replacing the traditional Mass with services in national languages.

The Vatican said the excommunications had been lifted after the bishops affirmed their willingness to accept Church teachings and papal authority.

'No gas chambers'

Relations between the Vatican and representatives of the Jewish faith have been strained throughout much of the Church's recent history; Jewish groups have accused the wartime-era Pope Pius of turning a blind eye to the fate of the Jews in World War II.

The latest move by Pope Benedict is likely to add to those strains.

Bishop Richard Williamson recently told Swedish TV: "I believe there were no gas chambers. I think that two to three hundred thousand Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps but none of them by gas chambers."

The Vatican has distanced itself from those remarks.

But its spokesman, Rev Federico Lombardi, still stood by the decision to rehabilitate Bishop Williamson and the others.

"This act regards the lifting of the excommunications, period," he told reporters.

"It has nothing to do with the personal opinions of a person, which are open to criticism, but are not pertinent to this decree."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7849226.stm

Whether excommunication has to do with personal political opinions or not, this moves raises lotsa questions....

[Elok]

Not really. This dead bishop could have believed that the moon landing was faked too and it'd still be irrelevant to his doctrinal positions. Then again, I'm not Catholic. Maybe there's something in the catechism about Hitler's execution methods. Somehow I doubt it though.

[Lorizael]

The Catholic Church doesn't exactly rule Europe anymore. Why does anyone who's not Catholic care what it does?

[Patroklos]

This dead bishop could have believed that the moon landing was faked too and it'd still be irrelevant to his doctrinal positions.

/thread.

[Alinestra Covelia]

The Catholic Church doesn't exactly rule Europe anymore. Why does anyone who's not Catholic care what it does?

Because in the space of time since JP2 took the robes and Papa Ratzi came to power, the Catholic Church has become much more influential in South and Central America, with considerable growth in Africa and Southeast Asia.

Though to give your statement credit, none of these is particularly well known for their extensive Jewish populations, so your statement still stands.

[Patroklos]

This really should be irrelevant to an Jew exercising logic as well. Do the Jews really want Catholics dictating how they apply their doctrine given the number of *******s in their fold as well?

If the Catholic church were violating their own rules to include this guy I could see their point, but they are not. And I will note that just because the church isn't denying this guy salvation does not mean St Peter can't when he has to answer for his holocaust denial up there

[Lorizael]

Yes, the largest concentrations of Jews are in Israel, New York, Florida, and good old MoCo.

[Riesstiu IV]

Mmm, I love concentrated Florida orange juice.

[Lorizael]

I'm drinking a Fanta right now.

[Japher]

Fanta has the best ad campeigns

[Ben Kenobi]

This has actually had a bearing on my personal life. A friend of mine got married in an SSPX church, and had to actually separate and remarry in the Catholic church when she found out that they weren't in communion with one another.

The reason the media is so hating on this move is because it is the reconciliation of divided Christians. We'll be seeing more of this as time goes on!

It's very, very good news, despite what the media will tell you.

[Ben Kenobi]

If the Catholic church were violating their own rules to include this guy I could see their point, but they are not. And I will note that just because the church isn't denying this guy salvation does not mean St Peter can't when he has to answer for his holocaust denial up there

Exactly. He may be eligible to be a member of the Catholic church, but that won't excuse him for whatever else he did that he will have already been judged.

This is more about those who followed him, and reconciling all of them in the Catholic church. I find the strident tones in the coverage rather humorous when you seen things from the inside.

[FrostyBoy]

religious people are funny

[BeBMan]

The reason the media is so hating on this move is because it is the reconciliation of divided Christians.

Thanks for your input, Ben. This thread was in need of some paranoia desperately

[Dry]

If the Catholic church were violating their own rules to include this guy I could see their point, but they are not. And I will note that just because the church isn't denying this guy salvation does not mean St Peter can't when he has to answer for his holocaust denial up there

There are 2 aspects in this papal decision and I think people here have focussed only on the second one, that is not the main one, but is telling something about the first.

In short:
Mgr Lefebvre was a [ultra]conservative catholic who did not accept the [librul] reforms of Vatican II. He performed the Mass in latin, like in good ol' catholic tradition.
In his opposition to the pope, he went as far as ordinating bishops himself. This is indeed a violation of RCC's rules, as it is something only the pope can do.
That was the step too far. Those four bishops were not only not recognized as such, but were even excommunicated by JP2. The ordinary followers were not excomunicated, but told they were somewhat mislead.

The problem for european catholic church is that those conservative catholics are the only one that are growing (at least in Belgium). The RCC is shrinking in numbers, except in those ultra-conservative communities.
The new pope seems so willing to get them back that he is ready to close his eyes on the bishop ordination. The compromise was that the bishops accept papal authority, and that the pope agrees that traditional Mass is also ok.

In order to illustrate how conservative, backwards those bishops are, and how ass-kissing - or is it conservative himself - pope Nazinger is, it was reminded that one of the four even denied the existence of gas chambers. Nazinger had the opportunity - or should I say a good excuse - to behave morally and keep them (or at least one of them) outside the church, but no.
The question is: is he so desperate, or doesn't he see a problem here? Is he conservative himself, or is he playing real politik?
Many of us think he has no problem with that, because he is himself not so far from those stinking ideas and that the RCC is heading backward.
And the next question is: what is the next move? Complete abolition of Vatican II?

Only BenK thinks this is good news.

Was the church violating their own rule?
Well depends. Does the church have anything to do with morality? If yes, then I think they indeed violated some moral rule. In the best case, they at least behave f*ing hypocritically.
Now some people may argue that religion has very few to do with morality. Well, in that case, you are right: they are not violating their own rule, just bending them a little.