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Yours and che's black-and-white outlook on the world is very reminiscent of Bush. 
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1. You assume everyone being tortured was Al-Q. That's not at all clear to me.
2. Torture IS bad. That we do not do it is one of the things that separates us from them. Doing it ****s us up more than it does them, IMO. The question of whether it generates useful information is secondary.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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You assume everyone being tortured was Al-Q.
No, I'm not.
Torture IS bad.
So are many other activities the state engages in to preserve national security. The question is whether torture (or "torture" in the American case) is so bad that the moral cost outweighs whatever utility the technique has from a national security perspective.
Doing it ****s us up more than it does them, IMO.
I would argue that if this statement is ever true, it would indicate that you really weren't torturing anyone in the first place.
The question of whether it generates useful information is secondary.
No, it isn't. It's at the very heart of the matter.KH FOR OWNER!
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GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!Comment
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There's a pretty large body of psychological research saying that human behavior is driven by social norms (Stanford Prison, Milgram, etc.). If rules governing society permit brutality on the part of the authorities, brutality most definitely happens. There's a reason why institutions like the army are very legalistic. So, a common thread in liberal (broadly speaking, not the 21st century US meaning) philosophy is that the state should err on the side of caution when imposing its power. Like, no torturing.
BTW, waterboarding someone 183 times in a month is torture, not "torture." Regardless of what American right wingers or North Koreans believe.Last edited by Ramo; April 22, 2009, 14:40."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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From what I read in the harsh interrogations memos posted on the WaPo web site, waterboarding, as well as the other harsh techniques, quickly lost efficacy with repetition. Inasmuch as that is true, waterboarding somebody 183 times was mainly a reflection of incompetence.
As to brutality, war is always brutal.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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If a person is safely in detention, you're not engaging in a "war" with him.
And yes, war is brutal. That, again, is why the legalistic structure of an army is a good thing. And the legal black hole that Republicans are such big fans of a bad thing."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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That's not true. They may have been planning an operation that is still underway. Even somebody captured in a conflict covered by the Geneva Conventions can be interrogated because of this fact.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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You're still at war with his allies and the information he may give you could be very valuable in prosecuting that war.KH FOR OWNER!
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That's not true. They may have been planning an operation that is still underway.
True, I should've stated that more carefully. BTW, that clearly wasn't the case for a number of the situations documented.
But see my DanS. The reason why the army behaves in a legalistic manner is precisely that the state has such a huge preponderance of force over individuals during a military action. The brutality involved increases the necessity of having clear rules where the state errs on the side of caution."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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Originally posted by Drake Tungsten View Post
Of course I knew that was the stock line, but I'd "hoped" the DOJ memo would at least lay that part of the debate to rest and it revert to the "it's wrong," "that depends," "no, it's wrong," "but that depends," "no, it's always wrong" ad nauseam subjective BAMs that the issue really boils down to.Comment
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To you. Not to me.No, it isn't. It's at the very heart of the matter.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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To you. Not to me.
You're irrational, then.
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!Comment
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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Drake calling someone else irrational.
THAT's funny.
-=Vel=-Comment
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Look at the large array of institutions that don't torture: competent criminal justice and military forces the world around. Those that do are not institutions any reasonable person would want to imitate. The techniques that the Bush DOJ used were based on the SERE program, where we were trying to reverse-engineer forced confessions produced by the North Koreans. This is not a pedigreed criminal justice or military technique, but one whose only real use has been political repression.Originally posted by Darius871 View Post"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
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