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Universal suffrage: pro et contra

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  • #16
    I don't think the Lumpen should vote, only people who have been through primary school and high school. But, then, I speak from a third world perspective, with real shanty town uneducated criminal people.

    Id be interested to see what Aneeshm thinks.
    I need a foot massage

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
      Interesting thoughts in this thread. I'm rather fond of the monarchy and would like it to play a greater role in our political system.
      That would be a disaster. Monarchy is the root of all evil...
      This space is empty... or is it?

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      • #18
        Have you seen the Canadian parliament? It's a joke, frankly.

        Monarchy isn't perfect, but it's still better then what we have now.
        Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
        "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
        2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
          Have you seen the Canadian parliament? It's a joke, frankly.

          Monarchy isn't perfect, but it's still better then what we have now.
          you're right Ben, let's return to the monarchy and follow the example of the illustrious king Tupou IV of the island Tonga.



          We need more surfing leaders!
          "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
          "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

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          • #20
            It's artificial, in a sense, to speak of a truly democratic government where the people are uneducated. In such cases they are liable to elect chieftains, not political leaders, to power.
            Democracy, unfortunately, is not a cure all. It is founded upon the will of the people. For there to be a democratic government, there must also be a democratic society. If the people do not understand or know what democracy is, then society is less likely to be democratic, and the democratic form of government is less likely to succeed.

            The solution to such crises is difficult to divine, particularly in the abstract. There have been gradual changes to democracy, as more people become more prosperous and educated and demand suffrage (England), there have been dictators who give the reins to their people (Taiwan), and so forth.
            "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

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            • #21
              In the US before Women's Suffrage husbands often got away with murder. A man had the right to discipline his wife and unfortunately sometimes a man just didn't know his strength. The death of a woman from domestic violence was often written off as an accident. After women got the right to vote the rate of female homicide increased dramatically and simultaneously the rate of accidental death of women decreased, simply because cases which would have been written off as accidents became classified as homicide.

              The treatment of blacks and Asians before they got the effective right to vote was similar. When people have no political power their lives are literally worth less than those who do have power.

              In England before universal male suffrage the upper classes successfully blocked attempts to increase literacy amongst the lower classes. The thing is though educating the masses makes a great deal of sense. The genes for intelligence and creativity aren't restricted to the property owning classes. Universal education increases the likelihood of developing the full potential of the whole society.

              In your own country onodera employers literally held the power of life and death over their employees before the Tsar granted the Duma a measure of power. At the beginning of the 20th century employers still had the right to physically discipline their employees and sometimes employees died as the result of corporal punishment. So long as the means of punishment wasn't obviously intended to be lethal employers generally weren't punished if the servant died. The next time you screw up at work think about that, if you didn't have the right to vote your life would be at the mercy of your bosses.
              "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Traianvs View Post
                you're right Ben, let's return to the monarchy and follow the example of the illustrious king Tupou IV of the island Tonga.



                We need more surfing leaders!

                Yeah, and remember back when the Great Britain and its colonies had a real honest to God established Church backed up with a loyalty oath that had teeth! No Catholic Relief Act for you, you Papist!
                "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                • #23
                  I'm rather fond of the monarchy...
                  How terribly unsurprising.

                  Monarchy - at least Monarchy with any sort of real power - is a terrible form of government.

                  Representative Democracy has its issues, no doubt, but come on now. It's not even close.

                  As for the major underlying problem with Democracy (that is, the people suck), well, it's a human thing more than a system of government thing. You can do your best to mitigate it, but ultimately people will still suck.

                  Happy New Year

                  -Arrian
                  grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                  The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                  • #24
                    Oh dear, Aneeshm seems to have got hold of a lot of peoples' passwords.

                    Either that or the elitocratic impulse is running high these days - which I suppose partly reflects the malaise in politics and the prevailing mood of misanthropic anti-humanism.

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                    • #25
                      You're probably on to something, Cort Haus. It's only natural that thoughts concerning governance, politics, economy, etc. would change when you start to perceive the failure of a system.

                      When I think of the US and our democratic system, I'm hard pressed to think of anything that is positive at all the past few years. I can think of innumerable bad aspects.

                      In my own lifetime I have seen a nation that has allowed our manufacturing industry to be dismantled, squandered away wealth and unprecedented levels, and fostered a house of cards economy. When I walk the streets or go to my job, I look at a nation that has become overweight, in debt, and overwhelmed with media a consumerism. I see a nation with an uncertain future.
                      Last edited by Riesstiu IV; January 5, 2009, 16:29.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Riesstiu IV View Post
                        You're probably on to something, Cort Haus. It's only natural that thoughts concerning governance, politics, economy, etc. would change when you start to perceive the failure of a system.

                        When I think of the US and our democratic system, I'm hard pressed to think of anything that is positive at all the past few years. I can think of innumerable bad aspects.

                        In my own lifetime I have seen a nation that has allowed our manufacturing industry to be dismantled, squandered away wealth and unprecedented levels, and fostered a house of cards economy. When I walk the streets or go to my job, I look at a nation that has become overweight, in debt, and overwhelmed with media a consumerism. I see a nation with an uncertain future.
                        I have similar concerns about the economy, but this is not an issue of democracy. Capitalism has had its ups and downs, and not without reason did Marx observe and predict periods of crisis such as this, but universal suffrage is not to blame.

                        Votes for all have helped to give most of us in the developed world a standard of living, education and health that many of our great-grandparents could only have dreamed of. Mad imbalances in the financial system have currently brought us to the brink of a particularly acute crisis, but these problems should not be interpreted as a characteristic of democracy.

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                        • #27
                          C'mon folks, learn to live with the least bad system of government in the world. I paraphrase Churchill when I say, democratic republics are the worst possible governments, except for all the rest. People are not nearly as stampedable as some onlookers think. Mobs don't come in the million+ member size and panics subside before representatives can react.

                          Personally, I like the checks and balances system developed during the US' early years (rest its soul). The one-party and blood succession feudal systems guarantee corruption and bad blood between the government and the citizens. Not that representative democracies don't have both of these, but on a much lower scale.

                          Note, any qualification system for limiting the vote will be used, in whatever nation, to limit the votes of those out of power and enable the votes of those that are in power. Forget that!
                          No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
                          "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

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                          • #28
                            Monarchy is nothing but a dictatorship with a pedigree.
                            "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                            • #29
                              The problem with allowing only landowners to vote or only letting the educated vote is that they will pass laws that favor landowners or the educated. The majority of people will have no one looking out for their interests. How can you ask the unrepresented majority of your country to serve in the military, to pay taxes, to follow laws which they've had no part in writing, etc?

                              In the mid-18th Century, the British Empire was ruled by the educated well-to-do. They ruled is such a way that we USAians kicked the butts out of our country.

                              I can understand if you were setting up a democracy in a country like Saudi Arabia, where you have a radicalize "street," you might not want to transform over to a pure republic. In this case, you could have a democratic lower house but an upper house which does have elitist restrictions (money and/or education).

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cort Haus View Post
                                Oh dear, Aneeshm seems to have got hold of a lot of peoples' passwords.

                                Either that or the elitocratic impulse is running high these days - which I suppose partly reflects the malaise in politics and the prevailing mood of misanthropic anti-humanism.
                                Unfortunately, yes.
                                "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

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