Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Then when they gain more recruits by this approach and eventually smuggle in a nuke into your cities, partially by the supply of recruits and sympathizers they build up, don't ask how did that happen.

It's as likely the Palestinian street goes Irish on their leadership as their leadership ever gets its hands on a nuke.

[notyoueither]

It seems the violence is never-ending. It's seemed that way elsewhere too. Eventually people will get tired of it.

The people the IRA depended on, their own people, started saying 'fookin' enoof'. When a large enough number of Palestinians start saying the same thing, the violence will be close to over.

Bleeding heart leftists in the West are doing as much to help the process as Irish-Americans in Boston did to stop The Troubles.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Plus it really was more directed at a group than a person.

Correct. Croatia isn't a poster.

[muxec]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Hamas coup?! Didn't Hamas win a majority of the seats in parliament? And Fatah's leadership was unwilling to hand over the reigns.

As for:

humanitarian and commercial aid were not completely ceased

All you need to do is click on the link, which has the UN's RWA saying it cannot get medical supplies to people in Gaza due to Isreal's blockade.

I believe them far, far more than I believe you.

And don't be silly, as soon as Hamas won the general elections, Israel (as well as the rest of the Western world) was saber rattling. The only inaccuracies and lies I see are coming from you and Eli.

Working as expected. If the humanitarian aid did arrive it would be used by Hamas, not ordinary citizens.

[Dinner]

Yep, just like the food aid to North Korea all got taken by the army and very, very little of it made it to the starving people. I've read that aid agencies in the 3rd world often have this problem where warlords take all the food because if you control the food then you control the power. Why do you think Mugabe starves everyone and doesn't let aid agencies in? Instead he demands that they give the food directly to him and then he gives it out only to supporters and denies it to the opposition. Food is a weapon.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by notyoueither
It seems the violence is never-ending. It's seemed that way elsewhere too. Eventually people will get tired of it.

The people the IRA depended on, their own people, started saying 'fookin' enoof'. When a large enough number of Palestinians start saying the same thing, the violence will be close to over.

Bleeding heart leftists in the West are doing as much to help the process as Irish-Americans in Boston did to stop The Troubles.

Amen to that.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by notyoueither
It seems the violence is never-ending. It's seemed that way elsewhere too. Eventually people will get tired of it.

The people the IRA depended on, their own people, started saying 'fookin' enoof'. When a large enough number of Palestinians start saying the same thing, the violence will be close to over.

Bleeding heart leftists in the West are doing as much to help the process as Irish-Americans in Boston did to stop The Troubles.

the odds are on that Israelis will tire before Palestinians... it almost happened with Yitzhak Rabin but he got assassinated by the "tireless".

As Sharon was getting towards some sort of resolution and even moved 10000 Israeli settlers out... he got into coma... there will be others and that's where the hope lies. If Israel changes it's tune there can be a resolution as they are effectively in control... but it remains to be see what happens first, Israel calming down the tensions, creating two states, going back to 1967 (or some new but this time fixed position)... or a nuke.

[MarkG]

Israeli naval ship clashes with Gaza aid boat

JERUSALEM, Dec 30 (Reuters) - An Israeli naval ship clashed on Tuesday with a small boat carrying international activists with aid destined for Gaza, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman said.

There were no reported casualties from the incident involving the small cabin cruiser "Dignity" that sailed from Cyprus late on Monday.

Israel has declared the coastal territory a closed military zone and said the Free Gaza Movement boat would not be permitted to dock.

Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for Israel's Foreign Ministry, said the boat failed to respond to Israeli naval radio contact, and that an Israeli vessel "clashed with the ship."

Free Gaza Movement told Reuters their boat, carrying 3 1/2 tonnes of medical aid with 16 people aboard, was rammed and shot at while in international waters about 70-80 miles off Gaza by Israeli naval vessel.

Palmor denied there had been any shooting although the two ships made "physical contact". He said no one had been hurt and that the Israeli ship escorted the aid boat back to Cypriot territorial waters.

Israel has declared areas around the Gaza Strip a "closed military zone" after it launched an aerial offensive in the coastal territory on Hamas targets on Saturday, in which 345 Palestinians have been killed.

Free Gaza Movement said their boat was safe, but had sustained damage. (Writing by Allyn Fisher-Ilan; Additional reporting by Michele Kambas in Nicosia; Editing by Matthew Jones)

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSLU725956

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Sprayber


I've had the feeling for awhile now that Hamas has no interest in removing Israel from the map for the simple reason that as long as Israel exists they exist. The people who are in charge of Hamas have no meaningful future in a world where Palestinians are all happy and Jew free. As for Israel, they seem to desperately want stability and security but cannot see any result where they are not the dominate party. They can't completely destroy Hamas without completely displacing the Palestinians and that will never be allowed as Gepap mentioned. They also can't bring themselves to manage the leap of faith required to get true peace on an equal basis with the Palestinians. I can't blame them on that point to be honest. There is no Palestinian leader that I'm aware of that both has credibility with his people and willing to inspire faith in Israel. IMO if peace is to come it will have to be by way of another Arab leader. Someone who isn't seen as weak towards Israel but is seen in Israel as an honest peacemaker. Even that is a long shot. I hope I'm wrong. I hope a Palestinian leader steps up and not only deals with Israel in good faith but won't be seen as a lap dog either.

Hmmm... so, basically, Hamas doesn't want to destroy Israel and Israel doesn't want to destroy Hamas. That's interesting... Now, if only they would both say so to each other's face, we could have some real progress in the making here.

But yeah, that would require leaders I don't see on either side at the moment.

[Zevico]

Sprayber:
What you suggest is a little more along Fatah's style. For the moment they have two sets of contradictory interests.

On one hand, Fatah has no money and is dependent on Western aid, arms and training to keep it in power in the West Bank. On the other hand, Fatah can only remain in power in the short-term by commanding the support of Palestinian society in the West Bank. Given that Fatah members are regarded as nepotist thugs by Palestinians, the only sure-fire way for them to remain popular is by holding up the banner of Palestinian resistance. 'Holding up the banner', meaning, of course, attacking Israelis. Unfortunately, they're losing their internal political struggle with Hamas precisely because Hamas are not regarded as quite so nepotistic and corrupt.

Worse, in the long term they need Israeli consent to retake Gaza (if they are ever able to do so). So they can't really be seen attacking Israelis.

For now, Fatah would like to retake Gaza. They've said as much already: apparently Fatah has cast its eye into the Crystal Ball of Al-Quds and decided that Gazans have had enough of Hamas. As for the problem of their own popularity among the people of the West Bank, presumably Fatah is hoping that West Bank Palestinians will look to the Gazans and hesitate before deciding to string up Abu Mazen and proclaiming allegiance to the Islamic Resistance Movement.

Hamas, Sprayber, are the real deal. That's how they got popular. They weren't as corrupt, and they were providing social services to ordinary Palestinians. Hamas thinks that decades from now, somehow, Israel will be destroyed and it will take power over the entirety of what is presently known as Israel and the Palestinian territories. A glorious dawn will come after a long night. All that blood and death will be worth it. For the moment, it retains power by holding forth the banner of resistance and retaining its image as 'straight' and idealistic. It doesn't require Israel's existence; it requires it to die [Mr Bond].

In any case, those are my 2 cents.

[Unimatrix11]

Originally posted by Guardian


Hmmm... so, basically, Hamas doesn't want to destroy Israel and Israel doesn't want to destroy Hamas. That's interesting... Now, if only they would both say so to each other's face, we could have some real progress in the making here.

But yeah, that would require leaders I don't see on either side at the moment.

Reminds me of a civ game, i once had with a buddy. Both of us were going at the other, raking him with nukes. An AI was secretary general of the UN and suggested peace between us. We both voted ´yes´, but were overruled by the AI - and wouldnt talk to each other face to face . More than 50 nukes were fired in that game.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Zevico
Sprayber:
Hamas, Sprayber, are the real deal. That's how they got popular. They weren't as corrupt, and they were providing social services to ordinary Palestinians. Hamas thinks that decades from now, somehow, Israel will be destroyed and it will take power over the entirety of what is presently known as Israel and the Palestinian territories. A glorious dawn will come after a long night. All that blood and death will be worth it. For the moment, it retains power by holding forth the banner of resistance and retaining its image as 'straight' and idealistic. It doesn't require Israel's existence; it requires it to die [Mr Bond]..

Then Israel best get to work and not worry about what the rest of the world thinks. Take the hit on international opinion and sweep the streets of Gaza clean of Hamas while they can. They won't get any more chances.

[dannubis]

So, how many civilians will be sacrificed to achieve wathever goal this time ?

Murderers

[Felch]

Originally posted by dannubis
So, how many civilians will be sacrificed to achieve wathever goal this time ?

Hopefully fewer than would die at the hands of savage marauders. If you want to see what happens when we let the indigenous barbarians take back control, just look at the Congo.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Felch


Hopefully fewer than would die at the hands of savage marauders. If you want to see what happens when we let the indigenous barbarians take back control, just look at the Congo.

Let's not forget the west thwarted a successful emergence of Congolese democracy and governance by murdering Lumumba.

It's also ironic that essential world powers like the US are not in favour of strong action of the UNSC in North-Kivu. Just putting the ball back into your court