What if Canada was conquered by the US?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Canada for most of it's history has been more conservative then the United States. It's only since the Quiet Revolution that this has changed.

You must be confusing "Canada" with "Quebec". An easy mistake to make for Americans such as yourself.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Undoubtably the NorthEast part of Canada (ie, anything to the East of Manitoba) and BC would be just as liberal, if not more, than the NorthEast US and West Coast. That's where most of the population is in Canada. So, yes, the country would have been far more left leaning.

Basically, the Republicans would have been more George H.W. Bush than George W. Bush. I still think Reagan would have arose due to specific circumstances of the time, but, like Thatcher in Britain, the country, after the crises of the age were over would have gone back to the left.

[Ben Kenobi]

You must be confusing "Canada" with "Quebec". An easy mistake to make for Americans such as yourself.

How on earth have the prairies been 'liberal' compared to the US?

I just don't see it. BC only changed with the demographic shift to Vancouver. Prior to that they were hard core conservative.

[Ben Kenobi]

Undoubtably the NorthEast part of Canada (ie, anything to the East of Manitoba) and BC would be just as liberal, if not more, than the NorthEast US and West Coast.

Why would that be? If the US takes over Quebec in 1777, then all the Quebec laws would be extinguished, and the colonies would be populated primarily by the 13 colonies, instead of the Loyalists.

As for BC, it's doubtful that it would ever have any British influence whatsoever. There's no reason why it would be any different from the rest of the Oregon treaty.

The coasts have only become liberal in the past 40 years or so, heck California voted for Nixon.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


How on earth have the prairies been 'liberal' compared to the US?

I'm referring to your understanding of the Quiet Revolution.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


The interesting thing is that there were only 4 colonies at the time. Quebec, PEI, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland.

It is likely if the US had successfully captured Quebec City in 1777, at the start of the rebellion, that there would have only been 3 states admitted, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Quebec, and instead of the 13 colonies, there would have been 16 states at the conclusion of the war of independence.

Likely if all the British colonies were admitted, slavery would never have survived the constitution of the US, and would have been abolished from the get go.

At the time of the signing of the Constitution only Massachusetts of the 13 former colonies outlawed slavery. Furthermore slavery had been legal in the British empire. Do you have any information to the effect that slavery was illegal in any of the Canadian provences prior to 1800? I doubt that the additon of Canada would have made a difference at the time of the signing of the US Constitution, but it might have after 1800. Significant tension between North and South began in the 1830's, but was countered by maintaining a delicate balance in the US Senate. If the addition of Canada meant an added 3 or 4 'free' states in the Union the South might have seceded. Had they done so I think their chances of success might have been higher. They probably would have added Texas to their number. The history of the Far West might have been greatly different. Would either the South or the North alone have been able to defeat Mexico and capture the Far West?

Hey, we have a novel alternate history timeline going here.

[Ben Kenobi]

At the time of the signing of the Constitution only Massachusetts of the 13 former colonies outlawed slavery. Furthermore slavery had been legal in the British empire. Do you have any information to the effect that slavery was illegal in any of the Canadian provences prior to 1800?

It was declared illegal in Upper Canada by 1792, and those were the only slaves in Canada at the time. AFAIK, slavery wasn't abolished until the vote later on, but there wasn't any slavery up here after the British conquest.

I doubt that the additon of Canada would have made a difference at the time of the signing of the US Constitution, but it might have after 1800. Significant tension between North and South began in the 1830's, but was countered by maintaining a delicate balance in the US Senate.

There was serious tension prior, and the response of Canada after the UAEs came up here (my family actually was here before the Loyalists), wrt to slavery. From everything I've read the response of the colonies was to ban slavery outright.

If the addition of Canada meant an added 3 or 4 'free' states in the Union the South might have seceded. Had they done so I think their chances of success might have been higher.

Doubtful. If they had incorporated all of the territories of Quebec (which they didn't get until much later), it is questionable given the sudden expansion that the US would have successfully seceded. Secession was a loser even with the north, and adding all of Canada to the North, isn't going to help matters any.

They probably would have added Texas to their number. The history of the Far West might have been greatly different. Would either the South or the North alone have been able to defeat Mexico and capture the Far West?

Texas did secede. You need to read up on your history.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why would that be? If the US takes over Quebec in 1777, then all the Quebec laws would be extinguished, and the colonies would be populated primarily by the 13 colonies, instead of the Loyalists.

As for BC, it's doubtful that it would ever have any British influence whatsoever. There's no reason why it would be any different from the rest of the Oregon treaty.

The coasts have only become liberal in the past 40 years or so, heck California voted for Nixon.

It's not liberal because they were controlled by the British, silly. It was mainly due to demographics and industrial reasons. It isn't like the NorthEast US was any more conservative than Britain up until WW2.

Oh, and you are talking about the Nixon who created the Environmental Protection Agency or OSHA? The Nixon who indexed Social Security for inflation and created the Supplemental Security Income? The Nixon who created the first significant federal affirmative action programs? What about the Nixon who called for a universal minimum income and UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE?!

Nixon belonged to a left leaning Republicanism that would find itself comfortably in the middle of the current Tory party in the UK. The type that would be in a US/Canada country.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's not liberal because they were controlled by the British, silly. It was mainly due to demographics and industrial reasons. It isn't like the NorthEast US was any more conservative than Britain up until WW2.

Which is my point. Britain, Canada and the US were pretty conservative, and I'd argue it was Canada who was more conservative then either Britain or the US prior to the second world war. You have to remember back then we didn't have universal health care, we had lower taxes then the Americans, we had a higher per capita service in the Armed Forces. It wasn't until later that Canada took the turn to the left, which not coincidentally coincides with the Quiet Revolution.

Oh, and you are talking about the Nixon who created the Environmental Protection Agency or OSHA? The Nixon who indexed Social Security for inflation and created the Supplemental Security Income? The Nixon who created the first significant federal affirmative action programs? What about the Nixon who called for a universal minimum income and UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE?!

Nixon belonged to a left leaning Republicanism that would find itself comfortably in the middle of the current Tory party in the UK. The type that would be in a US/Canada country.

And Canada elected Dief the Chief. I really don't see Canada becoming more left then the US until we elected Turdeau and you folks stuck with Nixon.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Like I said, the Nixon that was for universal health care in the early 70s... but that he could get the Democrats on board about.

Remember (or maybe you don't) after Nelson Rockefeller retired, his faction of the Republican Party (now called "Rockefeller Republicans") was referred to as "Nixonians".

Which is my point. Britain, parts of Canada and the US were pretty conservative

And why exactly did Britain, Canada, and the NE US and the West Coast become left leaning? Could it have been things that they may have shared that the Southern US & Rocky Mountain US/Canada did not share?

[Ben Kenobi]

And why exactly did Britain, Canada, and the NE US and the West Coast become left leaning? Could it have been things that they may have shared that the Southern US & Rocky Mountain US/Canada did not share?

The NE and the coasts becoming liberal is a rather recent phenomenon.

You have to remember that Canada isn't homogenous either.

The primary reason for them becoming liberal is the increasing urbanisation, which is what you see in Canada as well. Canada is actually more urbanised as a percentage of the population in the US, and that shift really didn't accelerate until after the war.

Prior to this, Canada was less urbanised then the US or Britain, hence it was more conservative then either.

[KrazyHorse]

Ben Kenobi
Ben Kenobi is online now New Post 15-11-2008 16:33 This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

My guess: BK is getting a chubby at the thread's hypothesis while at the same time demonstrating a total lack of understanding of both Canadian and US politics.

[Fake Boris]

[Asher]

Spot on

[Imran Siddiqui]

The primary reason for them becoming liberal is the increasing urbanisation, which is what you see in Canada as well. Canada is actually more urbanised as a percentage of the population in the US, and that shift really didn't accelerate until after the war.

So if they had been with the US since the beginning that urbanization wouldn't have occurred either?

Ben... please, come back when you start making sense.