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  • #46
    Originally posted by DanS


    If you want to do a stimulus (blow some money), then infrastructure is the wrong way to do it. It takes years for planning and the money would end up being spent when times are good.

    I think this is pretty basic economics that even the commies would agree with.
    Um.. No. We don't think like that. We plan for the long term.
    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Comrade Snuggles
      You are the eternal optimist.
      No optimism needed. What makes you think that we are into a long depression? That's what it would take in order to justify infrastructure spending under a stimulus plan.
      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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      • #48
        I guess the point is that I don't think we are into a long depression and were snookered into coming up with big bucks that are going to end up in someone's pocket making no difference to what will be.

        So I don't care if it takes awhile for that money to find it's way back into the economy while we wait for the planning etc. At least I figure it will eventually help. I have yet to see any benefit from voting all that money.
        It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
        RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

        Comment

        • #49
          Let me get this straight. We should spend on infrastructure that makes no sense (or makes sense) because we're spending money on a bailout that makes no sense?

          The infrastructure spending either makes sense or it doesn't. The bailout has no bearing.
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

          Comment

          • #50
            No instead of, not on top of.

            Between the pork stuck in at the last minute and what's going to line rich boys pockets. (seen those ceo's bonuses recently) WE got ripped off. Two years from now when the market has made some advances, no one is going to be asking where that money went. It will just be gone. At least if we had spent it on infrastructure we'd have something to show for it in the future.
            It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
            RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

            Comment

            • #51
              Originally posted by Oerdin


              It might take a while but eventually it does pay for itself. Increased commerce and mobility does generate economic gains. Try getting bombs to pay for themselves, that's just money down the drain.
              we could extort other countries into making payments so we wouldn't drop our bombs on them................
              “It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”

              ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man​

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              • #52
                Still has no bearing because it's not an either/or.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                Comment

                • #53
                  Re: CA High Speed Rail Authority

                  Originally posted by pchang
                  Ultimately, it will be a compromise between the Governor and the State Legislature. If the line is completed between San Jose and Los Angeles, a number of airlines will be hurting pretty badly. Southwest and United generate a lot of revenues from their SF Bay Area to LA Area flights. Obviously, I think the highest priority should be completing the line from San Jose to LA. However, I have a feeling the Sacramento to LA will get priority because it is cheaper (one less tunnel) and will probably have more political backing.
                  Oh, man the jockeying over who's segment gets built first is going to be intense.
                  Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                  Comment

                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DanS
                    Still has no bearing because it's not an either/or.
                    My point was that I wished it was instead of.
                    It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                    RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

                    Comment

                    • #55
                      Re: CA High Speed Rail Authority

                      Originally posted by pchang
                      Ultimately, it will be a compromise between the Governor and the State Legislature. If the line is completed between San Jose and Los Angeles, a number of airlines will be hurting pretty badly. Southwest and United generate a lot of revenues from their SF Bay Area to LA Area flights. Obviously, I think the highest priority should be completing the line from San Jose to LA. However, I have a feeling the Sacramento to LA will get priority because it is cheaper (one less tunnel) and will probably have more political backing.
                      Do you know how many shuttle trips are taken daily between LA and SJ/SF?
                      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                      Comment

                      • #56
                        number of shuttles

                        Not exactly but there are maybe 10 round trips per day between
                        SFO, SJC, OAK up north and
                        LAX, BUR, LGB, SNA, ONT
                        on Southwest and United, plus partial schedules on a couple other airlines so.....

                        15 X 10 X 3 = 450 round trips per day

                        This seems high, so I would say at least 300 round trips.
                        “It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”

                        ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man​

                        Comment

                        • #57
                          Thanks. And how much money do these tend to run one-way?

                          Edit: Let's say it's $150 on average each way, including taxes. I expect that the high speed rail would match that price roughly and would get maybe 55% share, like Acela does on the NYC <-> DC shuttle.

                          Using 300 round-trips, that's 600 daily trips at 200 passengers apiece on 260 business days a year, or $2.6 billion a year revenue.

                          It wouldn't seem to make sense to spend $40 billion in infrastructure for $2.6 billion a year revenue. Or it might be just barely sensible after all things are considered, if it's on budget and little chance to go over budget.

                          Any math that I got wrong?
                          Last edited by DanS; November 5, 2008, 19:22.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment

                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DanS


                            No optimism needed. What makes you think that we are into a long depression? That's what it would take in order to justify infrastructure spending under a stimulus plan.
                            Even if it's a short recession it's still a good time to start projects. Otherwise would you propose starting them at full employment?
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                            Comment

                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DanS
                              Thanks. And how much money do these tend to run one-way?

                              Edit: Let's say it's $150 on average each way, including taxes. I expect that the high speed rail would match that price roughly and would get maybe 55% share, like Acela does on the NYC <-> DC shuttle.

                              Using 300 round-trips, that's 600 daily trips at 200 passengers apiece on 260 business days a year, or $2.6 billion a year revenue.

                              It wouldn't seem to make sense to spend $40 billion in infrastructure for $2.6 billion a year revenue. Or it might be just barely sensible after all things are considered, if it's on budget and little chance to go over budget.

                              Any math that I got wrong?
                              It doesn't make BUSINESS sense (because the ROI is too long - it will eventually pay off, but not any time soon). This is why a BUSINESS hasn't done it yet.

                              It doesn't mean there aren't reasons for you to want it anyway... that's why the government should do it.
                              <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                              I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Kidicious


                                Even if it's a short recession it's still a good time to start projects. Otherwise would you propose starting them at full employment?
                                He's saying it won't actually start building until years from now, by which point Dan's assuming we're back to happy economy again.
                                <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                                I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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