The Old Testament kicks ass

[Barnabas]

This is my post in the "badass bible verses" thread, it fits this thread better.

I remember readong a few years ago an article by some jew about a very early christian heresy (marcionism I think) which wanted to drop the whole old testament and only keep the new one because they thought that the God of the old testament was too violent and brutal and that he could not be the real God.

According to this writer, that "heresy" was anti-semitic, because it considered judaism more primitive and brutal than christianity. And that such ideas have re-appeared many times in history the past 2000 years,

By the way, Didn't Jesus once say something like, what the old testament said about divorce is wrong?



Mat 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
Mat 19:4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'
Mat 19:5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
Mat 19:7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
Mat 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Mat 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

[EPW]

Because the Babylonians came first

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't really understand the hatred of the Old Testament. You are looking at the only book that attempts to span several thousand years of human history, particularly the relationship of God to his people Israel.

If you've actually read the thing, it is a historical account, and it doesn't pull any punches. We see the flaws of David, and of Saul, and of the entire nation of Israel, even though they are the people of God.

It wasn't written for a modern audience, and thank God, most of that perspective has remained preserved. Why should the NT fit the prejudices of modern man in order to be more palatable, when it is the truth and it accurately conveys the accounts of the times?

If you want the modern perspective go read the countless other books published in the last 5 years for your fill. There's nothing else out there like the OT in terms of a historical resource for times in which we have fragmentary documentary evidence.

[Ben Kenobi]

As for Noah, he is way older the Gilgamesh.

So why does the OT have to plagerise Gilgamesh? It could be they rely on a source much older then Gilgamesh.

[ramseya]

BK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

The earliest Sumerian versions of the epic date from as early as the Third Dynasty of Ur (2150-2000 BC) (Dalley 1989: 41-42)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh

According to the Talmud (Bava Basra 14b-15a, Rashi to Megillah 3a, 14a), much of the contents the Tanakh were compiled by the Men of the Great Assembly ("Anshei K'nesset HaGedolah") a task completed in 450 BCE, and have remained unchanged since that date.

Gilgamesh pre-dates the OT by nearly 2000 years!

[EPW]

Facts do not concern Ben in the least.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It wasn't written for a modern audience, and thank God, most of that perspective has remained preserved. Why should the NT fit the prejudices of modern man in order to be more palatable, when it is the truth and it accurately conveys the accounts of the times?

Well, you probably have a valid point here - both the OT and NT was written for the public at that time.

Just out of curiousity - why should anything that is so obviosly outdated have any influence on todays life ?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by EPW
Facts do not concern Ben in the least.

That is a bit unfair - every time god provides the facts, he is a firm beliver in them.

[Ben Kenobi]

Gilgamesh pre-dates the OT by nearly 2000 years!

You might want to re-read my argument. I am saying that Noah and the flood is far older then Gilgamesh.

The only actual evidence we have for Gilgamesh are tablets that date back to the 7th century BC. The OT doesn't go quite back that far, but to claim an additional 20 centuries onto the 7 is a bit much.

Finally, your argument fails is because not all the OT is equally old. Some parts are older then others.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

The OT would suck if it were only a bunch of violent and sex-laden stories. What makes it kick ass is that every word of it is literally true.

[Ben Kenobi]

Just out of curiousity - why should anything that is soobviosly outdated have any influence on todays life?

Carry that thought to it's natural conclusion, and you'll see your answer. What makes a thought 'outdated?'

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by ramseya
BK:
Gilgamesh pre-dates the OT by nearly 2000 years!

I am not saying that the OT story of Noah and Gilgamesh aren't the same story, nor am I saying that Gilgamesh is newer.

However, this comment is stupid. As the OT was developed over quite a large period of time, with all the wrting done prioer to 450 BC (much of it far earlier than 450 BC).

I am not sure when the oldest bits were written, though, 1700 BC?

JM

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Well, you probably have a valid point here - both the OT and NT was written for the public at that time.



Carry that thought to it's natural conclusion, and you'll see your answer. What makes a thought 'outdated?'

Well, that should be obvius - it's not written with todays knowledge. All what back then was seen as act of gods, we now know is just plain nature.

About thoughts, well, slavery for one is a bit outdated, stoning neither is considered a right way to punish. Further, it seems like god doesn't care so much today about life on earth - he was quite busy back then interviening, while today he doesn't do anything. Back then god mercilessly murdered thousands of infidels for mere insults, but today ? No nonchristian armies has been destroyed by gods merciless weapons despite the numerous chances there has been.

[ramseya]

again BK:

The earliest Sumerian versions of the epic date from as early as the Third Dynasty of Ur (2150-2000 BC) (Dalley 1989: 41-42). The earliest Akkadian versions are dated to the early second millennium (Dalley 1989: 45). The "standard" Akkadian version, consisting of twelve tablets, was edited by Sin-liqe-unninni sometime between 1300 and 1000 BC and was found in the library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh.

It was around longer than 7th century BC

[Asher]

Originally posted by ramseya
The Old Testament reads just like other period pieces of the region like Gilgamesh (hell, the OT plagiarized Utnapishtim's/Noah's Ark from Gilgamesh)... it sounds like it was written by tribal shepherds living in a violent Bronze Age-era.

How can you be a marine if you study such sissy fairy tales?