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  • Take THAT religious nutters!

    This is actually very good news for the teaching of science here in California. A federal judge has recently ruled that the University of California can continue its policy of denying course credits to students who come from Christian fundamentalist schools. This means you don't get create for that "geology" class which claimed the Earth is 3000 years old or for that "biology" class which didn't teach students about evolution.

    If you want to live in ignorance then don't expect real schools to rubber stamp your stupidity.

    Judge says UC can deny religious course credit

    Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

    Wednesday, August 13, 2008

    08-12) 17:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal judge says the University of California can deny course credit to applicants from Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible and reject evolution.

    Rejecting claims of religious discrimination and stifling of free expression, U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles said UC's review committees cited legitimate reasons for rejecting the texts - not because they contained religious viewpoints, but because they omitted important topics in science and history and failed to teach critical thinking.

    Otero's ruling Friday, which focused on specific courses and texts, followed his decision in March that found no anti-religious bias in the university's system of reviewing high school classes. Now that the lawsuit has been dismissed, a group of Christian schools has appealed Otero's rulings to the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco.

    "It appears the UC is attempting to secularize private religious schools," attorney Jennifer Monk of Advocates for Faith and Freedom said Tuesday. Her clients include the Association of Christian Schools International, two Southern California high schools and several students.

    Charles Robinson, the university's vice president for legal affairs, said the ruling "confirms that UC may apply the same admissions standards to all students and to all high schools without regard to their religious affiliations." What the plaintiffs seek, he said, is a "religious exemption from regular admissions standards."

    The suit, filed in 2005, challenged UC's review of high school courses taken by would-be applicants to the 10-campus system. Most students qualify by taking an approved set of college preparatory classes; students whose courses lack UC approval can remain eligible by scoring well in those subjects on the Scholastic Assessment Test.

    Christian schools in the suit accused the university of rejecting courses that include any religious viewpoint, "any instance of God's guidance of history, or any alternative ... to evolution."

    But Otero said in March that the university has approved many courses containing religious material and viewpoints, including some that use such texts as "Chemistry for Christian Schools" and "Biology: God's Living Creation," or that include scientific discussions of creationism as well as evolution.

    UC denies credit to courses that rely largely or entirely on material stressing supernatural over historic or scientific explanations, though it has approved such texts as supplemental reading, the judge said.

    For example, in Friday's ruling, he upheld the university's rejection of a history course called Christianity's Influence on America. According to a UC professor on the course review committee, the primary text, published by Bob Jones University, "instructs that the Bible is the unerring source for analysis of historical events" and evaluates historical figures based on their religious motivations.

    Another rejected text, "Biology for Christian Schools," declares on the first page that "if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong," Otero said.

    He also said the Christian schools presented no evidence that the university's decisions were motivated by hostility to religion.

    UC attorney Christopher Patti said Tuesday that the judge assessed the review process accurately.

    "We evaluate the courses to see whether they prepare these kids to come to college at UC," he said. "There was no evidence that these students were in fact denied the ability to come to the university."

    But Monk, the plaintiffs' lawyer, said Otero had used the wrong legal standard and had given the university too much deference.

    "Science courses from a religious perspective are not approved," she said. "If it comes from certain publishers or from a religious perspective, UC simply denies them."

    E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

  • #2
    "The UC is trying to secularize Christian schools"

    You don't get credit for science courses which skip basic scientific principles. When you teach students the required scientific principles then they can get credit until then stuff it.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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    • #3
      Secularization
      Graffiti in a public toilet
      Do not require skill or wit
      Among the **** we all are poets
      Among the poets we are ****.

      Comment


      • #4
        I am a biy confused, is this talking about science credit?

        I didn't know that schools checked the courses of previous schools re: admissions.

        JM
        Jon Miller-
        I AM.CANADIAN
        GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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        • #5
          Aren't there any kind of end terms in the US which all students must pass before they get a degree that allows them to get higher education?
          "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

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          • #6
            No. US students are awarded diplomas based on their grades in high school and having taken a specified number of courses in different subjects. Admission to college is based on your performance in high school and on certain standardized test scores, but individual schools set their own admission criteria.
            "Beauty is not in the face...Beauty is a light in the heart." - Kahlil Gibran
            "The greatest happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved; loved for ourselves, or rather, loved in spite of ourselves" - Victor Hugo
            "It is noble to be good; it is still nobler to teach others to be good -- and less trouble." - Mark Twain

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kirnwaffen
              No. US students are awarded diplomas based on their grades in high school and having taken a specified number of courses in different subjects. Admission to college is based on your performance in high school and on certain standardized test scores, but individual schools set their own admission criteria.
              No wonder the US has millions of religious henchmen. We have some sort of a curriculum that defines what kids need to know when they graduate. Teachers have to abide by that curriculum (there is no English word for it), but they are free to interpret it a bit more broadly if they want to stress some certain aspects of their course a bit more. It allows for enough freedom for the teachers, but it prevents them to smear bollocks all over the blackboard. Because, teachers' courses are regularly the topic of investigation to see if they meet certain quality standards.

              Try it out maybe, and perhaps your average PISA scores will rise significantly
              "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
              "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

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              • #8
                Yeah, I thought that as long as your highschool was accredited, they didn't look at specific course content when considering admissions (for one thing, it is so variable, even in public schools).

                It was a bit different for considering whether you needed to take remedial courses, or could start in advanced ones, though.

                Jon Miller
                Jon Miller-
                I AM.CANADIAN
                GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Traianvs


                  No wonder the US has millions of religious henchmen. We have some sort of a curriculum that defines what kids need to know when they graduate. Teachers have to abide by that curriculum (there is no English word for it), but they are free to interpret it a bit more broadly if they want to stress some certain aspects of their course a bit more. It allows for enough freedom for the teachers, but it prevents them to smear bollocks all over the blackboard. Because, teachers' courses are regularly the topic of investigation to see if they meet certain quality standards.

                  Try it out maybe, and perhaps your average PISA scores will rise significantly
                  The vast majority of people in the US are educated in public schools. The vast majority of private schools teach evolution/etc.

                  The vast majority of students who score low come from public schools.

                  You don't know what you are talking about.

                  This issue itself (which I agree with UC on to be clear), probably effects ten thousand highschool students at most.

                  JM
                  Jon Miller-
                  I AM.CANADIAN
                  GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jon Miller
                    I am a biy confused, is this talking about science credit?

                    I didn't know that schools checked the courses of previous schools re: admissions.

                    JM
                    This is about three groups.

                    1) High School students who want to go to UC as Freshmen.

                    2) College students who want to transfer to UC.

                    3) Students who already graduated but now want to go to grad school.
                    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So it is about all three? I thought they would be very different groups.

                      It is very common for a unversity to not accept another colleges courses, even if it is a well respected/etc university (not a 'Bible college'). This is even more common towards religious focused schools.

                      For graduate school things normally don't matter if you can pass admissions... but maybe that is just the sciences? While they did look at what courses I took, and the strength of my undergrad, I don't think they looked at what books I used...

                      I thought they were talking about UC freshmen here... in which case I also didn't think they checked up on books used/etc. But as I pointed out, that is where I would expect to see such text books (in a few cases).

                      JM
                      Jon Miller-
                      I AM.CANADIAN
                      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yeah, I just reread, this is about Christian highschools.

                        In which case I thought the admissions was based on whether the highschool was acredited or not and on tests. I didn't think they checked course books.

                        I personally wouldn't give acredditation to highschools whose biology classes contained such text books (would be fine as supplementary reading I guess).

                        JM
                        Jon Miller-
                        I AM.CANADIAN
                        GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This is actually very good news for the teaching of science here in California. A federal judge has recently ruled that the University of California can continue its policy of denying course credits to students who come from Christian fundamentalist schools.
                          Have you even read the textbooks they use? They said they would accredit the schools, if they used an 'approved' textbook list, and pulled the ones they are using. The issue apparently is that their textbooks make the sin of mentioning that God exists.

                          Did you forget to mention that these students kick ass on the standardised testing? The students are qualified on an objective measure to enter the university of California. If they wish to discriminate against Christians for believing in God, that's a loss to them as a university.

                          If you want to live in ignorance then don't expect real schools to rubber stamp your stupidity.
                          You'd turn away good students because they aren't Dawkin's devotees? If the students can ace a standardised test, there is no objective rationale for excluding them from the university.
                          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                          • #14
                            You don't get credit for science courses which skip basic scientific principles. When you teach students the required scientific principles then they can get credit until then stuff it.
                            This isn't just science courses. They refuse to give them any credit whatsoever for any course that they take at these schools.

                            This is all about control. They want the Christian school to dump their textbooks that mention God, regardless if it's in a biology textbook, or in English.

                            textbooks declare the Bible infallible
                            That my friend is a pure violation of the first amendment.
                            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Typical Ben overreaction. No it's not just because the text books mention GOD.

                              But Otero said in March that the university has approved many courses containing religious material and viewpoints, including some that use such texts as "Chemistry for Christian Schools" and "Biology: God's Living Creation," or that include scientific discussions of creationism as well as evolution.
                              As long as the text is open minded like the later one above that discusses both creationism and evolution it's fine. It's when it totally unscientific that there's a problem.

                              Another rejected text, "Biology for Christian Schools," declares on the first page that "if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong," Otero said.
                              ANd this doesn't deny them entrance, it just denies them credit for that course. (AS I WOULD HOPE SO)

                              SO chill a bit Ben and reread the article.
                              It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                              RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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