Will Georgia turn into a Moscow satellite?

[carnide_]

Portuguese media are currently reporting that the french foreign minister (Bernard Kouchner) warned today on a TV interview, with maps and other intel, that the russians are about to conduct an ethnic cleansing in SO tonight.
An independent commenter (usually very pro- Serb, pro-Russia) called "alarmist" and "exaggerating as usual" to Kouchner.

[Lancer]

'Ethnic cleansing' might be gathering all the Georgians and sending them over the border. I wouldn't put it past our buddy Putin.

[Dr Strangelove]

I thought the ethnic Georgians in SO left that area during the first few days of the Russian onslaught?

[Lancer]

I read a story of ethnic Georgians hiding in their fields, surviving on peach orchards and waiting for things to settle down.

[carnide_]

The media reported again the Kouchner warning, naming Akhalgori as the target.
- - -
A quick google found:

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19290

- - -
The independent commenter (Carlos Santos Pereira - http://www.webboom.pt/autordestaque....117030&area=01 ) called again "alarmist" to Kouchner, remembering is role in the 1991 Dubrovnik siege.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Dubrovnik.

[Riesstiu IV]

Originally posted by Lancer
I read a story of ethnic Georgians hiding in their fields, surviving on peach orchards and waiting for things to settle down.

They could also be surviving on coke products from that distribution center in Atlanta.

[Lancer]

[Agathon]

Originally posted by carnide_
Portuguese media are currently reporting that the french foreign minister (Bernard Kouchner) warned today on a TV interview, with maps and other intel, that the russians are about to conduct an ethnic cleansing in SO tonight.
An independent commenter (usually very pro- Serb, pro-Russia) called "alarmist" and "exaggerating as usual" to Kouchner.

Georgians could do with a bath.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap


What are you talking about, no access to Sevastapol? What the Ukrainian government demanded was that the Russians give them several hours notice on ships coming in and out. They aren't denying the Russians access.

They are talking about not renewing Russia's lease come 2017 though. That gives them lots of time to find an alternative.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Saras

How is Gladio in contradiction to what I wrote?

The whole installing a junta business in Greece. Very democratic, no?

If Russia and China became uber-democracies tomorrow, some other excuse would be found for NATO's existence. Nor would US east asian bases vanish. You're naive if you think otherwise. The United States cannot afford to lose what hold it has on the Eurasian continent if it wants to maintain its position in the world. That's a blunt fact, which even their own people have admitted.

Nations will always play up differences in ideology to mask their material goals. This serves two purposes: (1) it makes it much harder for the public to see the possibility of compromise, since it's supposedly an ideological conflict; (2) it provides a fig leaf for things that the public might not accept. Some of them even believe their own bull**** (Britons were particularly good at that, and the Americans are masters at it these days). Even when systems of governance are similar, some other excuse is found (the "degenerate" nature or culture of the other).

It's the oldest trick in the book. Amusingly, the same people who are capable of reading history books that explain how this happened 20 or 30 years ago are the same cretins who say it couldn't possibly be that way now. Except that's exactly what people were saying 30 years ago (e.g. Nixon couldn't possibly have been trying to extend the Vietnam War for electoral advantage – what a pity he copped to doing so quarter of a century later).

Same to you, supposedly big, mature and reasonable man (why a commie then, no idea). You have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you're babbling about.

Puting is a tin pot authoritarian who doesn't think twice about sending out the cops to beat the crap out of his own people, and who wants to **** over the pretty much everyone.

corrected

I don't much like Putin either, but he is at least part of the reality based community, and he did give me a good laugh by making our own governments splutter like the hypocritical nazis that they are, and the local poly nazis do the same even more pathetically.

Here's some news for you. You don't have to support any of them. They're all ****s, and you just look like a ***** latching on to any of them.

I've seen that map, and there aint no bases.

Look again. Admittedly, they got chucked out of one of them recently, but please do look.

**** off, *******. My judgement on Russian matters actually is worth infinitely more than yours, yours being zero.

You're just one with the Americans here, and they are pathologically stupid (I don't know what it is – their complete lack of education or culture, or their poor excuse for a free press). As I said elsewhere, they're a bunch of toddlers who've been given Bren guns for Christmas, as their deluded right wing cretins demonstrate in virtually every thread, including this one.

We are talking about the people who elected Bush twice. They're just ****ing stupid, and are to be politely humoured. It used to be the same with the Poms, although at least they had some brains.

[PLATO]

Hey Agathon! Good to see you in form today.

Your perspective is always welcome as it brings out the true rational nature of so many other posts.

[Lancer]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080827/..._eu/georgia_us;_ylt=AvZRS5s3KJgkO3iGBjtGeXhvaA8F

US cancels plan to send military ship to Poti
By JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press Writer 45 minutes ago


TBILISI, Georgia - The United States has canceled plans to try to dock a military ship carrying humanitarian aid in the Georgian port of Poti, where Russian forces are posted on the outskirts, a U.S. Embassy spokesman said Wednesday.

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The ship, the Coast Guard cutter Dallas, was to have come to the Black Sea port Wednesday morning. But embassy spokesman Stephen Guice said the vessel instead will dock in Batumi, a port well south of the zone of fighting in this month's war between Russia and Georgia.

Guice said he did not have information on why the plan was changed.

Poti's port reportedly suffered heavy damage from the Russian military. In addition, Russian troops have established checkpoints on the northern approach to the city and a U.S. ship docking there could have been seen as a direct challenge.

Although Western nations have called the Russian military presence in Poti a clear violation of an European Union-brokered cease-fire, a top Russian general countered Tuesday that using warships to deliver aid was "devilish."

"The heightened activity of NATO ships in the Black Sea perplexes us," Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn said in Moscow.

Many of the Russian forces that drove deep into Georgia after fighting broke out Aug. 7 in the separatist region of South Ossetia have pulled back, but hundreds at least are estimated to still be manning checkpoints that Russia calls "security zones" inside Georgia proper.

Two of those checkpoints are near the edge of Poti, one of Georgia's most important Black Sea ports. The Russian military is also claiming the right to patrol in the city.

Georgian officials have said much of the port's infrastructure — radar, Coast Guard ships and other equipment — was destroyed by the Russians.

In a move that angered Russia, the U.S. sent the missile destroyer USS McFaul to Batumi to deliver 34 tons of humanitarian aid on Sunday.

The McFaul left Batumi on Tuesday but would remain in the Black Sea area, said Commander Scott Miller, a spokesman for the U.S. Navy's 6th Fleet in Naples, Italy.

In Moscow, the deputy head of the Russian military's general staff lashed out at the U.S. naval operation.

"We are worried" about aid the way aid is delivered on warships, Nogovitsyn said. "This is devilish."

"This aid could be bought at any flea market," he added.

While he did not link it with the U.S. ships, Nogovitsyn said a unit of Russian naval ships was off Sukhumi — the capital of another separatist Georgian region, Abkhazia, on the Black Sea north of Poti. He said the ships were observing the pullout of Russian troops from Georgia.

Nogovitsyn told reporters that 10 ships from NATO nations were currently in the Black Sea and that eight more are to join them soon.

The United States and other Western countries have given substantial military aid to Georgia, angering Russia, which regards Georgia as part of its historical sphere of influence. Russia has also complained bitterly about aspirations by Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO.

[Ellestar]

Originally posted by Saras
I mean, what's so horrible that has NATO done? NATO has based four fighter jets in the Baltics and is PLANNING a DEFENSIVE missile system in Poland that has NO WAY of intercepting US-bound ICBM's. German Panzers, US German based armour and BOAR ( I like the old name of British Forces Germany) are safely in Germany (I hope re-basing closer to my home, and pronto). No offensive system has moved an inch eastward.

It's not exactly a defensive missile system, it's a generic medium range ballistic missiles and their launch sites. Changing "interceptor" warheads to a nuclear warheads is a technically trivial task and can be done in hours with a proper missile design and equipment. Well, i guess your press didn't said you about that minor detail.

OBVIOUSLY for everyone with some brains, military stuff MUST presume the worst favorable case and threat these "interceptors" as a nuclear-armed medium range ballistic missiles. That means that Russian responce times to nuclear threats must be considerably shortened as flight times from Poland to Moscow are several times lower than ICBM flight times. Obviously, that reduces the safety of the system - there is a bigger chance of a launch because of a mistake or an unauthorized launch. So, instead of defending against virtual Iranian missiles, that "defence" increases the chance of an all-out nuclear exchange.

Also, maybe there aren't many physical objects that moved east, but now they're controlled by NATO, not Warsaw Pact, so OBVIOUSLY from a Russian point of view a lot of unfriendly military alliance's troops and equipment has effectively "moved" to our borders.

Originally posted by PLATO
Russia threatening to attack Poland because of a defensive treaty they signed with the US should never have happened.

Even if they're just interceptors, they're a part of a US nuclear strategic force and so they're a first-priority targets in almost all cases, the same as any long-range radars, ICBM launch sites, military command HQs etc. The only exception to that priority list is when you don't have enough retaliatory power left to effectively cripple enemy military and so you launch all remaining nuclear warheads on biggest enemy cities.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ellestar

It's not exactly a defensive missile system, it's a generic medium range ballistic missiles and their launch sites. Changing "interceptor" warheads to a nuclear warheads is a technically trivial task and can be done in hours with a proper missile design and equipment. Well, i guess your press didn't said you about that minor detail.

OBVIOUSLY for everyone with some brains, military stuff MUST presume the worst favorable case and threat these "interceptors" as a nuclear-armed medium range ballistic missiles. That means that Russian responce times to nuclear threats must be considerably shortened as flight times from Poland to Moscow are several times lower than ICBM flight times. Obviously, that reduces the safety of the system - there is a bigger chance of a launch because of a mistake or an unauthorized launch. So, instead of defending against virtual Iranian missiles, that "defence" increases the chance of an all-out nuclear exchange.

Also, maybe there aren't many physical objects that moved east, but now they're controlled by NATO, not Warsaw Pact, so OBVIOUSLY from a Russian point of view a lot of unfriendly military alliance's troops and equipment has effectively "moved" to our borders.

So what? From our side, your equipment is at EU/NATO borders too.

[BeBMan]

Plus there's is actually an agreement with Russia that there will be no forward based nukes in eastern europe (so far I don't hear from Russia complaints that it is violated), so just getting IBMs into normal nukes is not that easy. I also doubt it's technically that easy, since the booster vehicle they use seems to be special development for interception (yeah, I could be wrong here, we need some rocket scientists).