Will Georgia turn into a Moscow satellite?

[onodera]

Originally posted by Saras I mean, what's so horrible that has NATO done? NATO has based four fighter jets in the Baltics and is PLANNING a DEFENSIVE missile system in Poland that has NO WAY of intercepting US-bound ICBM's.

Why do you need a defensive system in Poland that is ineffective, then? The only thing it does is irritate us. You know how in school kids wave hands in front of other kids' faces, and when asked to stop, reply, "come on, I'm not hitting you and the air is not yours"? That's what you say is being done.

Originally posted by PLATO
In some cases I think there is. It is certainly a case by case basis and certainly there needs to be some type of international consensus. So, yes, I think there are times when the world should intervene, but even then it is a dicey business.

Never should the world overthrow the elected government of a country unless that country has precipitated violence on another country or there is iminent danger of them doing so.

Russia's invasion of Georgia should never have happened. Russia threatening to attack Poland because of a defensive treaty they signed with the US should never have happened. Russia insinuating they may take action elsewhere should never have happened.

Russia has a fundamental misunderstanding of how the rest of the world fears their imperialistic tendancies. It should be clear to all now why NATO not only survived the end of the cold war, but is growing. .

When exactly did we threaten to attack Poland?
Also, we attacked Georgia because their breakaway province asked us to. No one asked you to attack Iraq the second time and hang its president.
I personally support non-interventionism, but only if it does mean global non-interventionism. What does the US need so many overseas military bases for?

[PLATO]

Russian general criticizes US Black Sea presence
By DAVID RISING – 8 hours ago

ABOARD THE U.S.S. MCFAUL (AP) — A Russian general suggested that U.S. ships in the Black Sea loaded with humanitarian aid would worsen tensions already driven to a post-Cold War high by a short but intense war between Russia and Georgia.

The U.S. Navy destroyer U.S.S. McFaul reached Georgia's Black Sea port of Batumi on Sunday, bringing baby food, bottled water and a message of support for an embattled ally.

The deputy chief of Russia's general staff suggested the arrival of the McFaul and other U.S. and NATO ships would increase tensions: Russia shares the sea with NATO members Turkey, Romania and Bulgaria as well as Georgia and Ukraine, whose pro-Western presidents are leading drives for NATO membership.

"I don't think such a buildup will foster the stabilization of the atmosphere in the region," Russia's ITAR-Tass news agency quoted Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn as saying Saturday.

Georgian Defense Minister David Kezerashvili told The Associated Press on the aft missile deck of the McFaul after greeting U.S. Navy officers that the population of Georgia would feel "more safe" from the "Russian aggression" as a result of the ship's arrival.

"They will feel safe not because the destroyer is here but because they will feel they are not alone facing the Russian aggression," he said.

Local children offered the Americans wine and flowers.

In Europe, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said he would convene a special meeting of European Union leaders over the crisis as Russia ignored Western accusations it has fallen short of its commitment to withdraw forces from its smaller neighbor.

The war erupted Aug. 7 as Georgia launched a massive artillery barrage targeting the Russian-backed separatist province of South Ossetia. Russian forces repelled the offensive and drove deep into Georgia, taking crucial positions across the small former Soviet republic.

Russia pulled the bulk of its troops and tanks out Friday under a cease-fire brokered by Sarkozy, but built up its forces in and around South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another separatist region. They also left other military posts at locations inside Georgia proper.

The U.S. and EU say both those moves violated Russia's commitments.

NATO halted the operations of its vehicle for interaction with Russia, demanding a fuller withdrawal, and Moscow responded by freezing military contacts with the alliance — its Cold War foe whose eastward expansion has angered a resurgent Russia.

The guided missile cruiser USS McFaul, carrying about 55 tons of humanitarian aid, is the first of three American ships scheduled to arrive this week. It brought baby food, diapers, bottled water, milk and hygiene products.

Sailors in a chain on deck passed the supplies up from the hold to be lifted by a crane for transport to shore.

The commander of the U.S. task force carrying aid to Georgia by ship, Navy Capt. John Moore, downplayed the significance of a destroyer bringing aid.

"We really are here on a humanitarian mission," he said.

The McFaul, an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, is outfitted with an array of weaponry, including Tomahawk cruise missiles, which can carry either conventional or nuclear warheads, and a sophisticated radar system. For security reasons the Navy does not say whether ships are carrying nuclear weapons, but they usually do not.

A U.S. official said the American ship anchored in Batumi, Georgia's main oil port on the Black Sea, because of concerns about damage to the Georgian port of Poti — not because Poti is closer to Russian forces in Abkhazia and Georgia proper.

Russian troops still hold positions near Poti, and Georgian port officials say radar, Coast Guard ships and other port facilities were extensively damaged by Russian forces. AP journalists there have reported on Russians looting the area.

An AP television cameraman and his Georgian driver were treated roughly and briefly detained Sunday by Russian troops outside Poti as he shot video of Russian positions.

Adding to the tension, South Ossetian officials claimed that Georgia was building up military forces in an area along the edge of the battered region and had fired sporadically at villages overnight.

As Moscow's military moved to redraw de facto borders on the ground, Russia's parliament on Monday was planning to consider renewed requests from South Ossetia and Abkhazia for recognition of their claims of independence from Georgia.

Georgia claims Russia wants to annex the regions.

Associated Press Writers Christopher Torchia in Gori and Skra, Georgia; Misha Dzhindhzikhashvili in Tbilisi, Georgia; and Steve Gutterman in Moscow contributed to this report.

[Saras]

Originally posted by onodera

Why do you need a defensive system in Poland that is ineffective, then? The only thing it does is irritate us. You know how in school kids wave hands in front of other kids' faces, and when asked to stop, reply, "come on, I'm not hitting you and the air is not yours"? That's what you say is being done.

I meant "US-Bound ICBM's originating from Russia".

[PLATO]

Originally posted by onodera

Why do you need a defensive system in Poland that is ineffective, then? The only thing it does is irritate us. You know how in school kids wave hands in front of other kids' faces, and when asked to stop, reply, "come on, I'm not hitting you and the air is not yours"? That's what you say is being done.

If it is defensive and you have no offensive intentions, then why would you be worried by it?

When exactly did we threaten to attack Poland?

Here:

(MOSCOW) — Russia warned Poland on Friday that it is exposing itself to attack — even a nuclear one — by accepting a U.S. missile interceptor base on its soil, delivering Moscow's strongest language yet against the plan.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1833364,00.html

Also, we attacked Georgia because their breakaway province asked us to.

Okay...A breakaway province in another soverign country. Do you hear yourself here? Do you think this helps Russia's case?

No one asked you to attack Iraq the second time and hang its president.

At least there were over a dozen UN resolutions. Regardless of what you think of 1441, no one can deny that the UNSC was seized of the matter. Can you show me even one UNSC resolution that dealt with the situation in South Ossetia?

I personally support non-interventionism, but only if it does mean global non-interventionism.

Then let's see you denounce Russia's actions here and now.

What does the US need so many overseas military bases for?

I think the Russian army has recently answered this question for us all.

[chequita guevara]

How long must a country be independent before the rest of the world recognizes it?

[Saras]

Depends if they have a reasonably responsible government, pretty fast. Not the case in SO and Abkhazia I'm afraid.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by onodera
Why do you need a defensive system in Poland that is ineffective, then? The only thing it does is irritate us. You know how in school kids wave hands in front of other kids' faces, and when asked to stop, reply, "come on, I'm not hitting you and the air is not yours"? That's what you say is being done?

The system in Poland would stop missiles headed towards Europe, namely Iranian missiles. They aren't boost phase interceptors, and so couldn't catch up to Russian missiles headed towards the US. It is true that the radar facility could spot for the US bound interceptors, but again, it is worthwhile to note that those are deployed in Alaska to stop an NK missile, not all over Northern Canada to stop a Russian attack, even though they will be able to intercept some missiles.

Originally posted by Patroklos
That right there is the clearest indicator of the sane west and the insane Russia. NATO is deploying benign defensive weapons irrelevant to Russia, Russia is deploying brand new IRBM and MIRVed ICBMs to yet more efficiently inflict nuclear holocaust.

Russia does have the right to maintain a credible nuclear deterrence. They'll have to step up bombers, migs practicing the toss, and subs to keep up with our stuff. Alternatively they are free to invest in such a system themselves.

[onodera]

Originally posted by PLATO

Originally posted by onodera

Why do you need a defensive system in Poland that is ineffective, then? The only thing it does is irritate us. You know how in school kids wave hands in front of other kids' faces, and when asked to stop, reply, "come on, I'm not hitting you and the air is not yours"? That's what you say is being done.

If it is defensive and you have no offensive intentions, then why would you be worried by it?

When exactly did we threaten to attack Poland?

Here:

(MOSCOW) — Russia warned Poland on Friday that it is exposing itself to attack — even a nuclear one — by accepting a U.S. missile interceptor base on its soil, delivering Moscow's strongest language yet against the plan.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...833364,00.html

Hm, is there a better source, preferrably with an exact quote?

Also, we attacked Georgia because their breakaway province asked us to.

Okay...A breakaway province in another soverign country. Do you hear yourself here? Do you think this helps Russia's case?

Imagine what would happen if we didn't.

No one asked you to attack Iraq the second time and hang its president.

At least there were over a dozen UN resolutions. Regardless of what you think of 1441, no one can deny that the UNSC was seized of the matter. Can you show me even one UNSC resolution that dealt with the situation in South Ossetia?

Did 1441 authorize the United States to attack a sovereign country? No.

I personally support non-interventionism, but only if it does mean global non-interventionism.

Then let's see you denounce Russia's actions here and now.

I am an officer, I cannot denounce the actions of my army. I do not like the whole affair, and I think Georgia would be better off without either Russian or American interference.

What does the US need so many overseas military bases for?

I think the Russian army has recently answered this question for us all.

No, that's what the UN is for, not the US.

[Lord Avalon]

U.S. Advises Allies Not To Border Russia

WASHINGTON—Following Russia's controversial military excursions into neighboring Georgia, the Bush administration made its most direct commitment to the U.S.'s Eastern European allies to date by "strongly advising" those countries not to border Russia under any circumstance. "The United States stands by its allies, but will not be able to defend our friends in the region if they continue to share geographical lines with Russia," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said at a Monday press conference. "We also recommend that those nations who may not border Russia but were once a part of the USSR immediately cease and desist from having had that history with the Soviet Union." Rice later pledged financial aid to the victims of devastating flooding in the West African nation of Togo, effective upon the country first meeting the stipulation of removing itself from under water.

linky

[onodera]

Originally posted by Lord Avalon


linky

So it advises them to kinda... crawl away from us? Or spawn buffer states?

[carnide_]

...if they continue to share geographical lines with Russia...

[PLATO]

Originally posted by onodera

Hm, is there a better source, preferrably with an exact quote?

From the article...which you apparently didn't read:

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff of Russia's armed forces, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying.

Imagine what would happen if we didn't.

Yes, a soverign country would be ruling over its own territory without foriegn intervention

Did 1441 authorize the United States to attack a sovereign country? No.

While that is debateable to many, it was not my point. My point was that the UN was heavily involved. I assume your answer means that you can't find where Russia ever brought this situation to the UN? Don't worry...no one else can either.

I am an officer, I cannot denounce the actions of my army. I do not like the whole affair, and I think Georgia would be better off without either Russian or American interference.

Understandable. I sure wouldn't want you to get shot. Oh...BTW, free countries don't do that. Seriously though, I do understand and I appreciate your loyalty to your country.

For the record though...The Americans are there because the Georgian government asked us to be. You guys are there because rebels asked you to be. Hopefully you see the difference.

No, that's what the UN is for, not the US.

Where exactly is the UN's army?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Lord Avalon


linky

Gotta love the Onion.

[Saras]

Originally posted by onodera
I am an officer, I cannot denounce the actions of my army. I do not like the whole affair, and I think Georgia would be better off without either Russian or American interference.

If you're an officer, that means you're in reserve (unless UniCredit is a military unit ), and as such a civilian, hence you can criticise your CIVILIAN government.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by PLATO
For the record though...The Americans are there because the Georgian government asked us to be. You guys are there because rebels asked you to be. Hopefully you see the difference.

I would note that this argument is particularly foolish given the US's involvement in Iraq (and many other situations in the past 6 decades). We went in counter to the wishes of the established government because they were violating the human rights of oppressed minorities (identical to Russia's claims in Georgia). Criticize the claims of Russia all you want, but the particular line of reasoning you employ is very poor.