Will Georgia turn into a Moscow satellite?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by onodera

Is there a right to invade countries that have otherwise elected governments?

In some cases I think there is. It is certainly a case by case basis and certainly there needs to be some type of international consensus. So, yes, I think there are times when the world should intervene, but even then it is a dicey business.

Never should the world overthrow the elected government of a country unless that country has precipitated violence on another country or there is iminent danger of them doing so.

Russia's invasion of Georgia should never have happened. Russia threatening to attack Poland because of a defensive treaty they signed with the US should never have happened. Russia insinuating they may take action elsewhere should never have happened.

Russia has a fundamental misunderstanding of how the rest of the world fears their imperialistic tendancies. It should be clear to all now why NATO not only survived the end of the cold war, but is growing. .

[Saras]

Originally posted by PLATO
Russia's invasion of Georgia should never have happened. Russia threatening to attack Poland because of a defensive treaty they signed with the US should never have happened. Russia insinuating they may take action elsewhere should never have happened.

... Russia should have never threatened to arm the Baltic fleet with tactical nukes, Russia should have never threatened to base newest generation OFFENSIVE nuclear-capable IRBM's in Kaliningrad, etc etc.

I mean, what's so horrible that has NATO done? NATO has based four fighter jets in the Baltics and is PLANNING a DEFENSIVE missile system in Poland that has NO WAY of intercepting US-bound ICBM's. German Panzers, US German based armour and BOAR ( I like the old name of British Forces Germany) are safely in Germany (I hope re-basing closer to my home, and pronto). No offensive system has moved an inch eastward.

Seriously, why don't they just **** off?

[Zkribbler]

It's a throwback to the old M.A.D. system.
The placement by the U.S. of an anti-missile system into Eastern Europe makes the Russian ballistic missile system less effective.

If we lessen the effectiveness of the Russian's missiles, we lessen their ability to act as an effective deterent.

[snoopy369]

A true ABM system would be an awful, awful idea, because it would likely start a nuclear war. Fortunately our ABM system isn't that good

Thank god Reagan's star wars programs never worked (or, rather, worked in destroying the USSR, but failed to actually block missiles). If they had, that would've been the end of the world...

[Saras]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
It's a throwback to the old M.A.D. system.
The placement by the U.S. of an anti-missile system into Eastern Europe makes the Russian ballistic missile system less effective.

If we lessen the effectiveness of the Russian's missiles, we lessen their ability to act as an effective deterent.

Russia has, and has had for over 30 years I believe, several active ABM sites around Moscow. Just so we remember.

[Saras]

here they are, some are visible on Google earth:

http://russianforces.org/blog/2005/10/moscow_abm_interceptor_sites.shtml

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Saras


Russia has, and has had for over 30 years I believe, several active ABM sites around Moscow. Just so we remember.

IIRC, the ABM Treaty permitted the U.S and the U.S.S.R. to keep an ABM system around their capital cities and around one ICBM site.

[snoopy369]

From a MAD point of view, please remember that 'ABM' as it was used then (ie, crappy pos's that probably would stop a few missiles) is very different from an effective ABM system, which would be dangerous and probably ensure the quick and efficient end of the world, if it were controlled by any party with MAD capability themselves.

The ABMs that Russia and the US had were useless, as they couldn't stop every single missile coming if more than a few came at them.

[Saras]

And the one in Poland is the doomsday machine. Come on.

[snoopy369]

Not sure who you're talking to, but I don't consider the Poland ABM to be the doomsday machine (though I think it's a silly provocation that won't do anything beyond bug Russia). It's still not good enough to be a true threat.

I do not like, however, the mentality of creating ABMs - eventually someone will think that someone else is close to making a true ABM, and that will be when the world ends.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by PLATO
America has a fundamental misunderstanding of how the rest of the world fears their imperialistic tendancies.

fixed

[Patroklos]

Aid workers provided Gori residents with blankets and boxes of high-energy biscuits. A U.S. naval destroyer delivered relief supplies Sunday at the Black Sea port of Batumi, the first of three such American vessels due to arrive in the coming days. The western port of Poti -- far from the combat zone -- is still occupied by the Russian army.

DDG-74

"The situation in the Black Sea is tending to become more tense," Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the Russian general staff, told reporters Sunday as the U.S. ship steamed toward port. "NATO countries are building up their naval presence to deliver humanitarian aid. . . . I do not think that this will contribute to the stabilization of the situation in the region."

Are you freaking kidding me? Delivering humanitarian aid won't contribute to stabilization? Honestly, does anyone still believe the Russians are rational actors?

In any event, via my shipmates on McFaul, they said the transit through the Black Sea was uneventful, with few non civilian contacts and certainly nothing threatening.

[Saras]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Not sure who you're talking to, but I don't consider the Poland ABM to be the doomsday machine (though I think it's a silly provocation that won't do anything beyond bug Russia). It's still not good enough to be a true threat.

To you, sorry for not making it clear.

So you will agree that threatening to forward deploying newest IRBM's and to nuclearise their Baltic Fleet is an uncalled for escalation.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Are you freaking kidding me? Delivering humanitarian aid won't contribute to stabilization? Honestly, does anyone still believe the Russians are rational actors?

I sometimes hope this all show is for domestic consumption, to feed the rah rah hordes of gradually brainwashed voters in order to focus them away from the rape and pillage of Russia's riches still going on on a massive scale, despite the apparent pacification of the "bloodsucking oligarchs".

[Patroklos]

That right there is the clearest indicator of the sane west and the insane Russia. NATO is deploying benign defensive weapons irrelevant to Russia, Russia is deploying brand new IRBM and MIRVed ICBMs to yet more efficiently inflict nuclear holocaust.