It's war.

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Serb
That is a standard line for ANY wiki article.

Doesn't help much in discussions, news articles or uni papers, in case you wondered.

[Pekka]

Well, to be clear, our papers don't say about Russia destroying cities. And I was surprised too there was no thread earlier, reporting started immidiately, at least in here it did.

Most is says it that some civies trying to escape the city got fired upon from Georgian tanks. And that it is still unclear whose artillery pounded buildings. And that Russian ship sunk some missile boat.

That's it.

[SpencerH]

This seems like a pretty well reasoned piece of analysis from the jerusalem post (I have no idea about the politics of the source) given the muscle flexing that Russia has been doing lately.

Georgia lost a foolhardy gamble in thumbing its nose at its powerful neighbor Russia, which this weekend bombed Georgian cities and wrested control of its breakaway province of South Ossetia, according to Israeli Russian experts.

Russia had seen a "golden opportunity" to teach Georgia and its neighbors a lesson to "behave properly," said Hebrew University Russian expert Yitzhak Brudny, as he explained how a small military flare-up between Georgia and South Ossetia had turned into a major military exercise for Russia and drawn world attention away from the Olympics in Beijing.

With all eyes turned toward China, Georgia's pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili had hoped he could respond harshly to a skirmish with South Ossetia on Friday and try and regain control of the separatist province, said Russian expert Amnon Sella of the Interdisciplinary Center at Herzliya.

"It backfired on him because Georgia, which has a very small army, can't take on Russia," which had obviously been prepared for such a move given its swift response, said Sella.

"Saakashvili is a young president who is not well seasoned in international affairs," said Sella. He had hoped the international community and in particular the West would support Georgia's moves in South Ossetia and that Russia would not respond, he added.

Saakashvili, explained Brudny, has a reputation for being a "hothead" who does not always think through what he is doing.

Instead of responding diplomatically, Russia, which has granted passports to most South Ossetians, sent combat troops into South Ossetia and attacked Georgia from the air.

The bombardment was a way for Moscow to kill a few birds with one stone, Brundy and other academics said.

It showed both Georgia and the West that Russia was a regional superpower to be reckoned with, said Brudny. The message was: "We are going to use force, we are not going to tolerate a hostile regime on our borderland."

"Russia wants to maintain the status quo, meaning they wield influence over the region," including a monopoly on sources of energy, said Sella. Running through Georgia is the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipline, the second largest in the world for the transport of crude oil, he said.

By flexing its military might against Georgia, Moscow paid the West back for its recognition of Kosovo's independence; a move that Russia had opposed, said Brudny.

In addition, he said, Russia hoped that its violent response would mark the beginning of the end of the Saakashvili government, which seeks to join NATO and had moved the country away from Russia in favor of the West. Moscow would like to see a pro-Russian government replace Saakshvilli, he added.

Russia is nervous because NATO is expanding into its back yard with both Georgia and the Ukraine seeking membership at the same time that NATO is putting an anti-missile system in eastern Europe, specifically in in Poland and Chechnya, said Zvi Magen, a former ambassador to Russia and the current chairman of the Institute for Eurasian studies at the IDC in Herzliya.

While the system is supposedly aimed at protecting Europe from Iran, the Russians are still uneasy about it, he added.

Saakshvilli, in a way, had been "ambushed" by the larger forces in play here, said Magen. For some time now Russia had been in opposition to the West in its region, but had been able to do little more than verbally protest - this was an opportunity for it to flex its muscles, said Magen.

In this way, he added, it also sent a message to the American administration that will replace Bush in January: Russia is not a force to be ignored.

[Dinner]

I can see what Saras means about Russians and their media making some far out claims.

MOSCOW, Aug 9 (Reuters) - Russia accused Ukraine on Saturday of encouraging Georgia to carry out "ethnic cleansing" in the separatist region of South Ossetia by providing arms, the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"The Ukrainian government, which has been enthusiastically arming Georgian troops from top to bottom, was in fact encouraging Georgia to attack and carry out ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia," the ministry said in a statement on its website www.mid.ru.

It added that ex-Soviet Ukraine had "no moral right to teach others how to do things." (Reporting by Tanya Ustinova, writing by Amie Ferris-Rotman)

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL9126746

He makes some wild unsupported claims and conveniently ignores that the Russian ships now blockading Georgia were based in the Ukraine. It seems like anyone an ultra-nationalist Russian doesn't like suddenly becomes a fascist and a war criminal in their media.

Seeings how Russia tried to assassinate the Ukrainian President it's no wonder they don't have warm fuzzy feelings towards Russia.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Saras


frankly, I think if Russia successfully overran i.e. Estonia, the closest US armour is in Germany (if at all there), the closest serious NATO armour is in Poland. Would you risk the nuking of Chicago over some obscure corner of the Baltic?

They might be more willing if it could be the version with the palace and the big clock.

[Saras]

[Saras]

lenta.ru (pretty normal for a russian media channel) reports Russians are shelling Gori in Georgia proper, and that the Georgian army is bracing for a fullscale armoured assault...

[Agathon]

Originally posted by dannubis

Which doesn't mean the Russians aren't illegally invading another state...

Where did I say I was pro Russian? In this case the Georgians are worse, but they're all ****s as far as I'm concerned. The Russians are retarded, but not as retarded as the Americans who seem to think that God sanctions their petty nationalism.

I don't see why I should have to support the lesser of two retards. If I had my way, they'd all be strange fruit.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Saras
lenta.ru (pretty normal for a russian media channel) reports Russians are shelling Gori in Georgia proper, and that the Georgian army is bracing for a fullscale armoured assault...

So Russia is going to use this intra Georgia war as an excuse to invade and over throw the Democratically elected government of Georgia? It appears they were more worried about Europe weaning themselves off of Russian energy then I thought. I've also heard Russia would like to buy most of Libya's oil as well to prevent it reaching the EU via a Tunisia-Sicily pipeline.

[Lancer]

Of course! Why set a table and not eat?

[Kirnwaffen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem that they'd have much to lose by going for broke on this one. What's anybody gonna do if they do seize the whole country?

[Saras]

Chechnya^3

[carnide_]

Some independent news about it.
yahoo news

Looks like real carnage to me.

[faded glory]

Russian Tanks and ground forces are poised for an assault on Gori. Sky news reports heavy shelling and airstrikes. Russian minister is quoted as saying saashkvili must 'go'. Georgian black sea fleet has been sunk. Abkhazia is attacking Georgian troops aswell.

This is disgusting and nothing short of an invasion.

My heart goes out to the people of Georgia. I really hope we step up and do something and not let a thriving democracy fall under Putins corrupt new fascist boot. I think we can all assume Russia wants this area to influence energy supplies going to Europe.

This sets so many precedents for Russia. What if Russia did this to eastern Ukraine? Finland and other areas. If Russia is coming to the aide of Russians, there are Russians everywhere in the former USSR. This is unacceptable and so dangerous and I understand the Kosovo set the precedent.

We are watching the building of a new Russian Empire. With us in Iraq and Russia spending its new found wealth in a dick waving war. Watch this week Israel levels Iraning nuke facilities. This world is ****ed up

[Dinner]

Aren't you dead?