Individualism and Judachrislam

[Ben Kenobi]

Capitalism is exploitation. Capitalists say this.

Seems I should add a citation needed here.

How can Christians serve their borther by exploiting them?

They can't.

Do you believe that it's only capitalist systems that are exploitive?

[Jon Miller]

feudalism is also

Ben, how do capitalists make their money?

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

You insisted that Capitalists say that capitalism is exploitive.

Who says it? Milton Friedman? Adam Smith?

You seem to remember it so clearly that I'm sure you can come up with the author who verifies your claim.

feudalism is also

What about Communism?

Is communism exploitive?

[Jon Miller]

I don't think that communism is inherently expoitive. No, I don't remember what capitalsts have said that capitalism is inherently exploitive off the top of my head.

Can you answer my question now? "How do capitalsts make their money?"

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't think that communism is inherently expoitive.

And you call yourself a Christian?

I've spoken with people who lived under communism, and they were more then happy to live in the free world.

Communism has killed people for professing their faith in Christ, has sent them to hard labour in the work camps, have killed them trying to build vast canals in the frozen wastelands of Siberia.

And you tell me that Communism is not 'inherently' exploitive?

You haven't a clue about exploitation. What we live with here is a summer breeze compared to there. I suggest you start with Solzhenisyn and get cracking.

No, I don't remember what capitalsts have said that capitalism is inherently exploitive off the top of my head.

IOW, you made it up. Why would you say that Jon? Did you think I'd read it and overlook it.

Look, if you believe that capitalism is exploitive then we can discuss that point, but when you make the claim that capitalists themselves claim the system is exploitive, then you'd better be able to back yourself up.

[Jon Miller]

Ben, it is pointless to talk to you.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Can you answer my question now? "How do capitalsts make their money?"

Depends on the capitalist. I own my own business, does that make me exploitive, since I am the only employee.

Some capitalists make their money as I do, they have an idea and they try to sell it to other people for whatever they are willing to pay.

Other capitalists apply for jobs, and work for these same capitalists so they can build up capital.

Other capitalists whip and exploit their employees, throw them out in the snow and cold, just like we see in Dickens.

Or they have so much money that they have a huge moneybin that they can dive into, and swim all day, basking in their riches.

Which story do you prefer Jon?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
No, I don't remember what capitalsts have said that capitalism is inherently exploitive off the top of my head.

It was assumed that capitalism was exploitive until after Marx developed the theory of communism as a result of revolution. After that economists developed theories to explain how capitalism benefited the working class, ie consumer surplus.

[Ben Kenobi]

Who assumed Kid?

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but it's hard for me to agree with you when you keep making unsubstantiated statements.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Who assumed Kid?

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but it's hard for me to agree with you when you keep making unsubstantiated statements.

Who didn't? No classical economist believed that capitalism would ever benefit the working class. That includes Adam Smith, David Ricardo and Thomas Malthus.

[Ben Kenobi]

Who didn't? No classical economist believed that capitalism would ever benefit the working class. That includes Adam Smith, David Ricardo and Thomas Malthus.

Adam Smith had his "invisible hand". That, through the actions of independent, self-interested actors, benefits would be provided to everyone, even if that was not the intent of their action.

If you've got quotes, pull them up.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Adam Smith had his "invisible hand". That, through the actions of independent, self-interested actors, benefits would be provided to everyone, even if that was not the intent of their action.

Carefull. He said that the "invisible hand" would create wealth. You are saying something different.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Adam Smith had his "invisible hand". That, through the actions of independent, self-interested actors, benefits would be provided to everyone, even if that was not the intent of their action.

If you've got quotes, pull them up.

"It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily;........"
(Vol_1*Book_1*Chapt_8)

-The Wealth of Nations

[Kidlicious]

It's pretty obvious that Ben hasn't read Adam Smith, at least not the whole book.

Ben why are you always defending the rich but you claim to believe that all people are of equal value?

[Arrian]

Just curious: how does believing that people are of equal value mean you have to think everyone must achieve the same economic outcome?

You and I are equal under the law. I go off and study history and a liberal arts college. You study, say, electrical engineering. Let's assume we're both reasonably good students.

In this example, you will probably earn more money than I will. I don't see how it has anything to do with your "worth" as a person.

-Arrian