Individualism and Judachrislam

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
...no. I'm certainly not a liberation theologian and I don't think it's necessarily a poor person's fault that he's poor (I say necessarily because if a guy gambles his wages away in Vegas, it is indeed his own fault he's penniless). The poor are sinners, but only in the same sense that all humans are.

For scriptural support for the idea that poverty is not evil, see the parable of Lazarus in Matthew, etc., etc. I'm sure Nikolai can do this better than I can.

I'm glad to here that, but most christians have been taught different. I used to attend the Church of Christ, a pretty liberal church, and even a lot of them believed that the poor cause their own poverty and that the rich are rich because of righteousness. They have scripture to back it up too.

"He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich."

-Proverbs 21:17
American King James Version"

[Elok]

How do you go from that one church (and Philosophiser) to "most Christians?"

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
How do you go from that one church (and Philosophiser) to "most Christians?"

Dude, I live in Oklahoma. Everyone is a christian here, except me.

[Kidlicious]

Elok,

Do you ever actually communicate with other christians? I do. That's how I know what they think.

[Elok]

"Most Christians in Oklahoma," then, assuming you come into contact with enough of the population to represent a statistically valid sample of the whole. 'Course, one of the nicest Xian laymen I ever knew was an Okie, and he certainly didn't despise the poor.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
"Most Christians in Oklahoma,"

In California, on TV, on the internet. Everywhere!

then, assuming you come into contact with enough of the population to represent a statistically valid sample of the whole. 'Course, one of the nicest Xian laymen I ever knew was an Okie, and he certainly didn't despise the poor.

Would you expect a black man living in Mississippi in the 1950s to say that white people aren't prejudice, it's only every white man I ever met?

[Jon Miller]

The puritan history is that the rich are those blessed by God, the poor are so possibly because of their lacking.

The evangelical tradition is more kindly towards the poor, I think.

JM

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Would you expect a black man living in Mississippi in the 1950s to say that white people aren't prejudice, it's only every white man I ever met?

No, I'd just invite him to talk with my Grandma, who was a civil rights lawyer.

[Kidlicious]

I'll change what I said. I'll agree that liberal christians don't believe that personal sin doesn't cause poverty, not just liberation christians.

edit: But like I said, some liberal christians also believe that.

[Elok]

Roughly, from memory: "It is not that this man sinned, or his parents, that he was born blind, but that the glory of God might be realized through him." Blindness and poverty are of course two very different things, but generally it's not Christian to say your misfortunes *must* be your own fault. Not according to my view of things, anyway.

[Ben Kenobi]

I know that in the Bible Jesus says to serve the poor and you will serve him. I'm not aware that he says to serve the rich.

Christians should serve each other as brothers and sisters, whether they are rich or poor is irrelevant.

Now that's what I call Supply Side Jesus. Can you provide verse to show where you are getting this?

I already did.

There are classes. You've been talking about them as though they exist.

Classes aren't immutable. That's my point. You yourself have experienced rises and falls, there are rich people and poor people, but there isn't "the rich", or "the poor", where the poor are always poor and the rich are always rich. This is why we are called to serve one another, because they are people just like ourselves.

I understand that they are rich and poor just as you do, just as Jesus did.

Then why did Christ say we have an obligation to serve each other?

[Ben Kenobi]

Also Ben my response to your PM is that, yes Christians have been hostle towards communism, and communists tend to be athiest often, but the Bible does not make class struggle a sin. Only Christians themselves have done that.

Then you should be able to find an endorsement of the class struggle in scripture. I'll give you a hint. It ain't there, so don't bother looking. Christ believes that we should serve each other and that includes poor people serving those richer then them.

You see, Christ sees service as something positive not negative. I was rather shocked when you said that serving someone else was a bad thing.

As for hostility, the opening statement of the Manifesto is essentially a declaration of war against Christians as they are a part of the bourgeoisie. Why shouldn't Christians be hostile to a movement that declares them as the enemy and that they need to be pulled down?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm glad to here that, but most christians have been taught different. I used to attend the Church of Christ, a pretty liberal church, and even a lot of them believed that the poor cause their own poverty and that the rich are rich because of righteousness. They have scripture to back it up too.

Thrift is a virtue. It's important to make the best use of the gifts that you have been given.

I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?

"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

This you should read, Luke 16:8-16.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Christians should serve each other as brothers and sisters, whether they are rich or poor is irrelevant.

What you are saying is that it's irrelevent that there is disparity in wealth. The Bible clearly states otherwise. Show me where the Bible justifies disparity in wealth.

I already did.

Did not.

Classes aren't immutable. That's my point. You yourself have experienced rises and falls, there are rich people and poor people, but there isn't "the rich", or "the poor", where the poor are always poor and the rich are always rich. This is why we are called to serve one another, because they are people just like ourselves.

Bull****! They aren't just people like me. They are rich. I am poor. That's the reality that you want me to ignore. They don't need to be served. Furthermore they don't serve me.

Then why did Christ say we have an obligation to serve each other?

The way I see it he said to serve each other when our brothers need to be served, not when they are rich and powerfull. The world that you desire, you can never have equality because the poor serve the rich. You don't wan't equality at all.

[Jon Miller]

Is storying your money and not helping the poor/etc the example of what misusing your money is?

It isn't hoarding or increasing which is considered a trustworthy use of your wealth.

JM