Individualism and Judachrislam

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Christianity aims for a middle path, in that they reject the two ends. They reject the notion in communism and in socialism that the common good should consume the individual, and they reject the notion that the community is meaningless to individual well-being.

Then you don't know Marx very well.

His contention is that an individual should realize himself through work, but that work within a capitalist context (aimed solely at the increase of capital and productivity) is alienating. The individual in a communist society would therefore conduct as less as possible "productive" work so that he could dedicate his time to things like art, craft, or value-added products.

[Ben Kenobi]

How can the common good consume the individual? Also, is this just what christians believe or is there something in the Bible about this?

The whole division of classes is non-existant in Christianity. There are many cases where the common good is presumed to be more important then the individual. The whole notion of the class struggle revolves around that point which Marx spends considerable time.

He believes that the good of the many can only be achieved through the sacrifices of the few, and that by pulling the rich down, it is better to benefit everyone. You see it in Mill's utilitarianism as well. The common good by definition treats people as classes, not individuals.

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:28

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. he greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Matthew 23:8-12

Among many others. Yes Christians have responsibilities to not only help others, but they are commanded to love thy neighbour. What we do is up to us and how, but we don't have an option to stop loving them ever.

[Ben Kenobi]

His contention is that an individual should realize himself through work,

He is a materialist. It's a grave error that man should realise themselves solely through their work. Work is a good thing, but it is not the only good thing, and no one should ever realise themselves solely through the work that they do.

work within a capitalist context (aimed solely at the increase of capital and productivity) is alienating.

All work is alienating, in the sense that Marx means it. Scripture talks about the toil in the fields as the curse of adam. He shall work, and shall not taste the fruits of his labour. I don't see the justification between working for the state and working for a different boss. Both are just as alienating.

The individual in a communist society would therefore conduct as less as possible "productive" work so that he could dedicate his time to things like art, craft, or value-added products.

Which is why Communism has brought about a flourishing of art as opposed to capitalism? I don't see it. Marx may claim that a communist government frees things up, but the problem is that if the work you do is not productive, then no value is created, which means that no one can afford to spend time painting, or doing works of art. Just because the state is paying you doesn't make work less alienating.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The whole division of classes is non-existant in Christianity.

What about "The meek shall inherit the earth?"

There are many cases where the common good is presumed to be more important then the individual. The whole notion of the class struggle revolves around that point which Marx spends considerable time.

But where in the Bible does it say that the poor do not struggle against the rich, or that the rich do not oppress the poor.

He believes that the good of the many can only be achieved through the sacrifices of the few, and that by pulling the rich down, it is better to benefit everyone. You see it in Mill's utilitarianism as well.

First, Marxism isn't about pulling people down. It's about creating a society that is better for everyone.

Second, where in the Bible does it say this is against Christianity?

The common good by definition treats people as classes, not individuals.

Why do you need a society with classes to have your own idea of individualism?

Among many others. Yes Christians have responsibilities to not only help others, but they are commanded to love thy neighbour. What we do is up to us and how, but we don't have an option to stop loving them ever.

Why do you support capitalism then?

[Kidlicious]

edit: wrong thread.

[Ben Kenobi]

What about "The meek shall inherit the earth?"

It's the inversion in Christianity. The class struggle is all about envy. Christianity says we should not be envious, but we should be willing to serve others. It turns the whole thinking upside down.

But where in the Bible does it say that the poor do not struggle against the rich, or that the rich do not oppress the poor.

It doesn't deny that the poor exist, Christ even says that the poor will always be with us, and that we have a responsibility to them, not because they are poor, but because they are our brothers.

That's why we are really the levellers, all men are equal in the eyes of God, the poor man is not less valuable because he owns fewer things, he is our brother, just as the rich man is our brother.

First, Marxism isn't about pulling people down. It's about creating a society that is better for everyone.

Marx declares that a revolution is needed to pull down the bourgeosie. IOW, the few rich need to be pulled down so that the poor may flourish. The manifesto is a call to action.

Or do I need to quote the Manifesto at you?

Second, where in the Bible does it say this is against Christianity?

Chronos said that Marx believe that man is realised through his work, this is an error. Christianity says that man is a creation of God and cannot find fulness outside of him.

Why do you need a society with classes to have your own idea of individualism?

We haven't even talked about individualism, I am just saying that Christianity rejects the idea of classes, and the class struggle as enumerated by Marx. Christianity sees poverty as a natural consequence of human society, and that it is a problem that we will always have to grapple.

Why do you support capitalism then?

Capitalism is the most productive economic system available. Wealth distributed through individual actions is more efficient then wealth distributed by the nomenklatura.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It's the inversion in Christianity. The class struggle is all about envy.

No it's not. Where do you guys get this idea anyway? Can you quote a Marxist for us, to show us where you guys get this idea?

First of all, the rich are struggling just as much as the poor to get more wealth and keep what they have. Is that out of envy too.

Second, the poor are barely surviving and just want to feed their families. Also, they have to physically defend themselve in many cases.

Christianity says we should not be envious, but we should be willing to serve others. It turns the whole thinking upside down.

When are the ****ing rich going to serve us for a change? That's a very strange claim, that I'm ordered by God to serve the capitalists. Wouldn't I be ordered to serve him?

And I can't even stress how patriarchal this all is. How the hell do you associate that with individualism or freedom?

It doesn't deny that the poor exist, Christ even says that the poor will always be with us, and that we have a responsibility to them, not because they are poor, but because they are our brothers.

That's why we are really the levellers, all men are equal in the eyes of God, the poor man is not less valuable because he owns fewer things, he is our brother, just as the rich man is our brother.

If we are all equal in the eyes of God, why do the poor have to serve the rich?

Marx declares that a revolution is needed to pull down the bourgeosie. IOW, the few rich need to be pulled down so that the poor may flourish. The manifesto is a call to action.

Or do I need to quote the Manifesto at you?

That would be nice actually.

What you are missing is that it really isn't about rich people at all? It's about to economic systems, capitalism and communism. One is a class based society and the other isn't. Marx predicts that the system that isn't class based will prevail. You favor the class based system.

Your religion isn't against class warfare at all. You are all for it. You just don't want the poor to engage in it at all, because you want them to be docile.

Chronos said that Marx believe that man is realised through his work, this is an error. Christianity says that man is a creation of God and cannot find fulness outside of him.

Are you talking about Oncle Boris?

Anyway, you are just wrong about this, and maybe the Bible is as well. Work can be very satisfying. Serving others however is not. That's why communism is better than christianity and capitalism.

We haven't even talked about individualism, I am just saying that Christianity rejects the idea of classes,

It DOES NOT! It clearly states taht the poor should serve the rich, as you yourself have stated.

and the class struggle as enumerated by Marx.

Because the poor should serve the rich?

Christianity sees poverty as a natural consequence of human society, and that it is a problem that we will always have to grapple.

WTF???!! How is telling the poor to serve the rich grappling with poverty?

Capitalism is the most productive economic system available. Wealth distributed through individual actions is more efficient then wealth distributed by the nomenklatura.

What does wealth creation have to do with christianity?

[Kidlicious]

Also Ben,

This seems to be your own little sect of Christianity with the idea that the poor shouldn't fight back against the rich. You haven't provided any biblical reference for the idea that the poor shouldn't fight the rich. You did give reference (not scripture actually) for the rich respecting the poor, but nothing stating that the poor shouldn't stand up for themselves if they aren't respected by the rich.

Just wanted to point that out before we discuss your ideas further.

[Pekka]

In regards to Christianity, especially the Catholic Church, there's few problems with the poor and the Church.

In the 1600s France, and other European countries, there was a struggle between the Church telling that idleness is the path to everything bad in men, so there were economic bad times going on.... so what happened, this isn't the Church's fault though, that the age of confinement began. That is, those who were very poor, they were confined into General Hopitals and so forth. Begging became illegal, it was a question of people being idle, that is bad, thus forced labour, it was basically a double thingie, first to remove idleness, secondly to remove unemployment. Of course this lead to other problems, like cheap labour, and competitors nearby would feel it, losing their market to cheap state labour, the work they did in those institutions, that were, by the way, built for the lepers first. So when the lepers where non-existant, the drunkards, perverts, mad and poor were forced there. And work for quarter of the normal price. So who benefits the most from this? The rich. This keeps poor people poor AND working, cheap labour is basically beneficial for the rich. In this sense, you could use Marx to state that it is this very setting, that makes the play itself, even fi there is no conspiracy, but this way they aren't able to lift themselves upwards in class but rahter stay there AND work hard. That is, the fruits of the labour go to the rich, not the poor. In this sense, Kid isn't far off the mark as far as 160ss and 1700s adn so forth Europe goes. It is important to understand, that they had no choice but to work hard for low wages. Begging etc became illegal, if you got caught, you ended up in these confined places. This was done also because high salaries weren't afforded, so this was an easy way to fix that. This in turn made some manufacturers go out of business, thus more unemployed people, thus more confined people. The more this happens, the more rich benefit from it, directly.

It's not correct to say that it was the fault of the Church, this was what the state did, however, the whole idleness campagn came from Church in the first place, and it certainly did not oppose this way of doing things as being wrong, on the contrary, they wanted to get rid of these people, the states won the struggle to be able to retain these people, and keep them fed and roof over their heads. Even though they really did rip them off, it was also a sort of humanitarin thing to do at the time, and it did start as one so it was seen as one as well.

[Kidlicious]

Europe is the only place where vagrancy is legal.

[Kidlicious]

I used to have this quote in my sig for a long time.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France

[Pekka]

This was more of an historical account than anything else.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Pekka
This was more of an historical account than anything else.

[Nikolai]

Kidi: Where do you get this poor should serve the rich from? Not the Bible at least. Jesus told us to love God and love eachother, and as a consequence serve eachother. Rich or poor, this is what we should strive for.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Kidi: Where do you get this poor should serve the rich from? Not the Bible at least. Jesus told us to love God and love eachother, and as a consequence serve eachother. Rich or poor, this is what we should strive for.

In the capitalist system the poor serve the rich. That's reality. This is the system the BK says God supports.