You definitely have to have an opinion about this

[Aeson]

I don't think it's viable or even useful to offer restitution to people who's ancestors were discriminated against. You end up in a never-ending quagmire of bringing up past wrongs, with no real ability to make it right, and create a sense of entitlement within some communities, and further resentment in others.

What is viable is to eliminate discriminatory policies (if they still exist) and ensure that everyone has access to education, health care, basic necessities... to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to succeed. That way you "catch" everything, everyone benefits, and no one is treated differently.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Aeson
I don't think it's viable or even useful to offer restitution to people who's ancestors were discriminated against. You end up in a never-ending quagmire of bringing up past wrongs, with no real ability to make it right, and create a sense of entitlement within some communities, and further resentment in others..

New Zealand hasn't, so your point is moot.

This is not an idealistic policy. It is about fixing the obvious injuries to our society, and is conducted on pragmatic grounds.

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Agathon


Similarly, you as a citizen, along with all other citizens, inherit liabilities that your state may have incurred, whether or not you were personally responsible for them.

And this is where I don't agree. Even though I might have taken / still take advantage of the infrastructure developed by previous generations, I did not actively contributed to the wrongdoings of the past.

We must acknowledge there were mistakes (by lack of a better word) and we have the moral duty not to repeat them. We must make sure that those who have historically been discriminated against get their fair chance today.

However I will never accept that either me personally or someone else in my name has to apologise for something our ansesters did. I am not liable for other peoples mistakes.

[rah]

A lot of immigrants were discriminated against in issues of employement, housing, and banking. My grandfather didn't vote till much later in his life due to intimidation tactics at the polls. So yes, maybe not as extreme but the very same things were happening. Blacks may have the record but don't hold a monopoly.

And by telling anyone that stands on their own feet that it's because of the corpses is demeaning and ridiculous.

We should never try to accomplish anything because it has no meaning because everything is tainted by the white man's sins that will last for 1000's of years. Just Plain Silly.

I'm with dannubis, at some point it can't be an excuse.
I've hired 100s of people in my career and I can honestly say that it was done with no regard to race, sex, relgion or sexual preference. What else can I expected to do? I refuse to personally be held responsible for sins that neither I nor my ancestors commited.

[Lancer]

At least we're not French.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Agathon
New Zealand hasn't, so your point is moot.

This is not an idealistic policy. It is about fixing the obvious injuries to our society, and is conducted on pragmatic grounds.

So you think if the US gov decided to pay all US descendants of slaves $X for slavery that would fix the injury, not play to feelings of entitlement, or create resentment?



It doesn't fix anything, all slaves were still slaves and that was a horrific thing, nothing can ever fix that. No one living today was a slave, so compensating them for slavery is just stupid. All it would do is rather randomly re-distribute $X*descendant. You'd be compensating millionaires and homeless people (and probably quite a few people you wouldn't expect), using everyone's tax money.

There are a lot of people who's ancestry has been crapped on one way or another in the past. Most of us in fact. Trying to unravel that and compensate people for what didn't happen to them is stupid. The concept is one of entitlement, and there's no way you can pretend otherwise.

What matters is how you personally have been treated. Not pandering to whining idiots.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Aeson
The 5% vs 45% statistics are rather misleading. Of course a minority population is less likely to be the target of random crime than a majority population.

Even when you account for population ratios, blacks attack whites more often than the other way around.

But that doesn't mean it's not loaded with crap.

It is not loaded with crap (though I wouldn't sign under it). Now, I have noticed that you have ignored this:

Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America ? Is it really white America 's fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent ?

I'd like to hear what you have to say about it, point by point.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Even when you account for population ratios, blacks attack whites more often than the other way around.

So? The statistics used were offered in a misleading context, which I pointed out. I didn't propose any statistics, so why you're trying to argue with "them" is beyond me.

It is not loaded with crap (though I wouldn't sign under it).

It is loaded with crap. Sorry that you aren't capable of understanding how that is. The world could use fewer ignorant people. Oh well.

Now, I have noticed that you have ignored this:

I notice you "ignored" most of my post. Mainly the context. I initially said the email was loaded with crap. Sloww asked me to go into further detail about the crap I was referencing. I detailed the crap. That detailing of the crap is what you have responded to.

To pretend that I must address the non-crap when asked to detail the crap, or be "ignoring it", is ridiculous. I stated there were some good points in the email. You have ignored this to pretend that I was ignoring them.

Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America ? Is it really white America 's fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent ?

No. Of course not. I expressly said I don't even think it's valuable to deal with this issue as "white America" or "black America". If you have read my statements and understood them at all, you would have realized I couldn't possibly think that it's "white America's" fault.

That said, there are environmental factors which contribute to some communities being more crime ridden than others. Those factors hold true across ethnic backgrounds. If we want to address the issue, the way to solve it is address the economic, cultural, and social problems. You can't solve it addressing the race of people, unless you feel genocide is a valid option. (Even then you won't solve the problem, you'll just be eliminating a symptom of it.) So what's the point of pretending it's a problem with someone's race?

The only reason to dwell on race statistics like this is to try to create or strengthen stereotypes. In the end, it's individual's actions which describe their actions (amazingly enough), not their race. Pretending otherwise is ignorant.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Aeson
The only reason to dwell on race statistics like this is to try to create or strengthen stereotypes. In the end, it's individual's actions which describe their actions (amazingly enough), not their race. Pretending otherwise is ignorant.

Here's a question for you.

“There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life,” Jesse Jackson said several years ago, “than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery—and then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

Is this person:

a) rational
b) irrational

[Lancer]

That's hard to say Vet, but whichever it is he's likely still got his wallet.

I can tell you I wouldn't want to go back to some of the places I grew up in Jersey. I'd get killed by racists in no time.

[Aeson]

In what regard?

I would say it's rational to feel pained by having that reaction (though maybe not for his reasons, as they are not explicitly laid out in that quote).

I would say it's rational for him to present such a case as an example of how a community is perceived, even by itself. And rational to suggest that such a perception is a bad thing. (Again though, maybe not for his reasons.)

I would say it's not rational to feel safe/unsafe simply because of the color of someone's skin. There are plenty of people of every skin color who would be a danger, or safe.

(I've already said it's a racist sentiment in another thread.)

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Aeson
I would say it's not rational to feel safe/unsafe simply because of the color of someone's skin.

Thanks for the info.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by rah
A lot of immigrants were discriminated against in issues of employement, housing, and banking. My grandfather didn't vote till much later in his life due to intimidation tactics at the polls. So yes, maybe not as extreme but the very same things were happening. Blacks may have the record but don't hold a monopoly.

So what? They are the people still paying for it.

And by telling anyone that stands on their own feet that it's because of the corpses is demeaning and ridiculous.

It is also true. How can any educated person possibly deny it?

We should never try to accomplish anything because it has no meaning because everything is tainted by the white man's sins that will last for 1000's of years. Just Plain Silly.

No. Your comment has gone beyond plain silly to mind-numbingly stupid. Where did I say anything that entailed that?

I'm with dannubis, at some point it can't be an excuse.
I've hired 100s of people in my career and I can honestly say that it was done with no regard to race, sex, relgion or sexual preference. What else can I expected to do? I refuse to personally be held responsible for sins that neither I nor my ancestors commited.

Yet you were quite happy to benefit from them. Again, no-one is holding you personally responsible, but that doesn't mean you don't have to pay up. You are a US citizen. Your government's wrongs are your problem. Stop trying to avoid your responsibilities!

Isn't that what Republicans are supposed to be for – responsibility?

[Aeson]

Agathon,

You say, "no-one is holding you personally responsible..." and then go on to detail how you are holding rah personally responsible.

[Lancer]

Aeson, I disagree with your implied contention that Rah is personally irresponsible.