The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Perhaps this is what is truly wrong with this country... this incredibly arrogant and selfish lack of respect for others.

Telling children to recite the pledge is disrespectfull.

Telling kids to recite the pledge is the same thing, in effect, as telling them to pray to a particular God. Not only should kids not have to participate, in any way, but they shouldn't be allowed to recite such fascist crap.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Telling children to recite the pledge is disrespectfull.

Telling kids to recite the pledge is the same thing, in effect, as telling them to pray to a particular God. Not only should kids not have to participate, in any way, but they shouldn't be allowed to recite such fascist crap.

So, just to be clear:

Forcing kids to say a certain thing--fascist.
Forbidding kids to say a certain thing--not fascist.

Is that about the size of it?

[snoopy369]

Kid, you having a reading problem again?

Nobody is forcing anyone to recite anything.

Regardless - have you been to school ever? Aren't you forced to do, and say, lots of things? Isn't that how school works - you do what your teacher tells you to do?

I seriously hope this thread isn't indicative of the general American public. If it is, we're going down the tubes pretty fast... I'd put this thread right about on par with Creationism in terms of blind following of doctrine, ignoring reality...

[Spiffor]

Snoopy:

There's a bit of a difference between 1. forcing children to acquire knowledge by working, and 2. indoctrinate children to a doctrine regardless whether it means to repeat it mindlessly or to "respect" it.

During the 19th and 20th century, school was often used in the west to indoctrinate children into nationalism. But since then, most western countries are now fairly confident in their feeling of nationhood, and don't use such a clumsy indoctrination anymore... It's surprising the US clings on this relic of the past, which is seriously at odds with what the US stands for today.

[chequita guevara]

When did Snoopy become such a ****ing fascist?

[Arrian]

He's a mod, right?

-Arrian

[Agathon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
When did Snoopy become such a ****ing fascist?

How long have you been posting here again?

Most of the forum members are extremely authoritarian.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Snoopy:

There's a bit of a difference between 1. forcing children to acquire knowledge by working, and 2. indoctrinate children to a doctrine regardless whether it means to repeat it mindlessly or to "respect" it.

During the 19th and 20th century, school was often used in the west to indoctrinate children into nationalism. But since then, most western countries are now fairly confident in their feeling of nationhood, and don't use such a clumsy indoctrination anymore... It's surprising the US clings on this relic of the past, which is seriously at odds with what the US stands for today.

1. School is indoctrination. What else can it be? The control we have is over what they are indoctrinated with. Don't fool yourself in believing that teaching kids the socratic method or whatnot is anything other than indoctrination; it's just indoctrination with the socratic method. It's not like we do - or should - give kids a choice of what to learn, except at the very broad and relatively meaningless level of 'electives'; in very few schools does 'elective' mean anything other that do you take choir or orchestra or band, or home ec or spanish. Every school in the country requires certain key elements, such as english, math, science, etc.; and this is what kids must learn, and they must repeat it back to the teacher when asked. The difference between this and the Pledge of Allegiance is trivial.

2. Teaching kids to respect everyone is quite important, in my opinion. Again - if my kids end up in Saudi Arabia, I expect them to do whatever is considered respectful during their prayer services, or stay off the *******streets otherwise. Respect does not mean agreement, or belief; it simply means acting in a way that is polite and shows you value others' opinions, regardless of your own feelings. It is unfortunately something lost in many otherwise intelligent people.

As of when did
[q="Not Voltaire"]I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it[/q]
become a fascist refrain, anyway? It's not so fundamentally different from what I am asking...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by snoopy369
1. School is indoctrination. What else can it be? The control we have is over what they are indoctrinated with. Don't fool yourself in believing that teaching kids the socratic method or whatnot is anything other than indoctrination; it's just indoctrination with the socratic method. It's not like we do - or should - give kids a choice of what to learn, except at the very broad and relatively meaningless level of 'electives'

And you're missing the point.
Yes, at school, children don't have a choice in their curriculum: they are forced to to work in order to learn something they don't necessarily want to learn (though there are possible alternatives, but that's a debate for another thread).

However, my contention is that there's a strong difference between teaching knowledge and indoctrinating a child into a set of values. I don't equate knowledge-transmission with indoctrination. IMO, the only thing they have in common, at school, is them being forced by a teacher who's in position of authority: not enough of a common point for me to equate the two...

The difference between this and the Pledge of Allegiance is trivial.

On the surface, yes. But deeper than that, there's a world of difference: Math, English etc are taught as an objective "truth": it's not like the pupil decides that 1+1=3, or that you can spell ortawgraff however you want. The teacher doesn't require the pupil to agree with the knowledge, but to acquire it. With the pledge of allegiance, however, the teacher doesn't teach about an object that is foreign to the pupil's control, but asks the pupil to take allegiance as a subject. It's not a transmission of knowledge anymore, as it fully lacks the objectivity*

2. Teaching kids to respect everyone is quite important, in my opinion. Again - if my kids end up in Saudi Arabia, I expect them to do whatever is considered respectful during their prayer services, or stay off the *******streets otherwise. Respect does not mean agreement, or belief; it simply means acting in a way that is polite and shows you value others' opinions, regardless of your own feelings.

Thank you for teaching me what respect is (For the record, I was past week at an evagelical wedding, strongly religious, and I stood as requested, made no ruckus etc despite my disagreement with the priest's blathering, )
However, your definition of respect is horribly narrow:

- Respecting the opinion of others is only interesting if I have an option to disrespect them. In the case of the pledge of allegiance (or other strongly emotional phenomena, such as a national minute of silence for example), there is pretty much no option.

- "Respecting the opinion of others" does imply the others share that opinion. Somehow, I strongly doubt the majority of the kids would pledge allegiance to your country if it wasn't for that school-sanctioned ceremonial. It's not "the others' opinion" one respects while respecting the pledge, but a conformism whose continued existence is solely due to value voters.

- You compare respecting the pledge at school, and respecting a prayer in Saudi Arabia. Well, indeed, if I was to visit an American school, I wouldn't make a fuss during the pledge out of respect for my hosts. I have learned that, when people are nice enough to host you, you keep your criticism to yourself.
Thing is, a pupil is not a guest at his school. He's part of the system. And if you want him to learn democratic values, you want him to question things (especially a subjective set of values such as the one encompassed in the pledge), and you don't want to suppress his opinion out of conformism. At least, that how one should see the "land of the free, home of the brave"; the one that derides us for having surrendered so quickly...

As of when did
[q="Not Voltaire"]I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it[/q]
become a fascist refrain, anyway? It's not so fundamentally different from what I am asking...

Yes, it is fundamentally different: it's the very opposite. It's not like an anti-pledger (I'm not meaning somebody who's dilent during the pledge, but somebody who feels the pledge is wrong) can bully his way into barring the others from reciting their indoctrination. Actually, the anti-pledgers are the ones being silenced into submission, on the grounds of "respect".



*Preventive asterisk: I obviously don't believe in perfect objectivity. When you teach knowledge, it's always bundled with values. What I call "objectivity" is knowledge being treated as an object foreign to one's control, rather than as a subject

[Elok]

Originally posted by Agathon
How long have you been posting here again?

Most of the forum members are extremely authoritarian.

Well, they did write the book on heavy-handed repression. Thing is, you burned that book, so now there's no evidence.

[Kuciwalker]

*Preventive asterisk: I obviously don't believe in perfect objectivity. When you teach knowledge, it's always bundled with values. What I call "objectivity" is knowledge being treated as an object foreign to one's control, rather than as a subject

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
When did Snoopy become such a ****ing fascist?

Probably the first grade.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Kid, you having a reading problem again?

Nobody is forcing anyone to recite anything.

Do you have a reading problem? I said they are "told" to recite the PoA.

Regardless - have you been to school ever? Aren't you forced to do, and say, lots of things? Isn't that how school works - you do what your teacher tells you to do?

I seriously hope this thread isn't indicative of the general American public. If it is, we're going down the tubes pretty fast... I'd put this thread right about on par with Creationism in terms of blind following of doctrine, ignoring reality...

Yes, you need to tell kids to do somethings. What you should not do is tell them what to believe about politics in a public school, anymore than you should tell them what to believe about religion.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok


So, just to be clear:

Forcing kids to say a certain thing--fascist.
Forbidding kids to say a certain thing--not fascist.

Is that about the size of it?

They can say anything they want, when not at school.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Yes, you need to tell kids to do somethings. What you should not do is tell them what to believe about politics in a public school, anymore than you should tell them what to believe about religion.

Rather tell'em to get the right haircut