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The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

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  • The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

    The latest Minnesota healthcare news from the Minnesota Star Tribune. Coverage of businnesses that provide healthcare and Minnesota health insurance to the state.


    Three small-town eighth-graders in Minnesota were suspended by their principal for not standing Thursday morning for the Pledge of Allegiance, violating a district policy that the principal now says may soon be reworded to protect free speech rights.

    "My son wasn't being defiant against America," said Kim Dahl, mother of one of the students, Brandt, who attends Dilworth-Glyndon-Felton Junior High School in northwestern Minnesota.

    Brandt told the Forum newspaper in Fargo that Thursday's one-day in-school suspension, "was kind of dumb because I didn't do anything wrong. It should be the people's choice."

    Kim Dahl said the "punishment didn't fit the crime. If they wanted to know why he didn't stand, they should've made him write a paper." She said her son has been declining to stand all school year, offered no reason for sitting and was not obligated to explain his actions.

    The school's handbook says all students are required to stand but are not required to recite the pledge. The same is true for all four schools in the district, a school official said.

    "These three [students] didn't, and they got caught," said Mel Olson, the district's community education director. He said he backs the punishment, "being a veteran and a United States of America citizen, absolutely." Olson served in the Marines in Japan during the Vietnam War.

    The head of the Minnesota American Civil Liberties Union said that the school's actions against the students are unconstitutional, and his office informed the district of that today in a strongly worded letter.

    "The school can't do that; that's illegal," said Chuck Samuelson, the civil liberties group's executive director. "Wow."

    Samuelson said that numerous U.S. Supreme Court rulings dating to the 1940s say in "well-settled constitutional law" that "students who refuse to participate in the pledge cannot be punished for refusing to participate."

    Samuelson said he's surprised that any public school district would have such a pledge requirement, given that state law allows for students and teachers to decide not to participate. Most states have the same "opt-out" provision.

    In St. Paul, said district spokesman Howie Padilla, "Students can respectfully not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance." Minneapolis schools treat pledge participation the same way.

    Colleen Houglum, the principal who suspended the three, acknowledged in a statement late this morning that the policy requirement that " 'all students will stand' may need to be modified to address the protection of the individual's form of expression."

    Kim Dahl said Houglum called her this morning and informed her of the possible accommodation. "I think they are handling it quite professionally," Kim Dahl said, adding that Houglum told her that school officials "are taking some steps to take the [suspensions] off their records."

    That possible shift was met with disappointment from Olson. While he said he'll fall in line with whatever change may occur, "I still have my beliefs."

    Earlier today, Olson said that a "very nice announcement" was made at the start of the junior high school day reminding the students that they must stand for the pledge.

    Houglum said that all students this morning were "involved in some fashion" during the pledge, adding that no additional suspensions were needed.

    However, the family of 14-year-old Bishop Edens told the Forum that he was suspended from school today (Friday) because he wouldn't stand for the pledge, but he was quickly invited back once Houglum said a policy change might be needed. Edens had said Thursday that he would sit in support of the other three.

    "Our social studies teacher led the pledge, and that was kind of a nice change of pace," Houglum said.
    Kim Dahl asked Brandt why he has been remained seated all school year, but "he didn't have an answer ... he doesn't get in trouble; he's just a normal 13-year-old."

    As for today, she told Brandt to take his cell phone with him to school and text her should he run into trouble again. "I said you should probably just stand if you're not protesting something."
    My comment is the thread title
    We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
    If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
    Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

  • #2
    Between hassling students for pledges and haircuts when do US schools have time for education?

    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Wezil
      Between hassling students for pledges and haircuts when do US schools have time for education?

      Education? Schools are supposed to indoctrinate not educate.
      Libraries are state sanctioned, so they're technically engaged in privateering. - Felch
      I thought we're trying to have a serious discussion? It says serious in the thread title!- Al. B. Sure

      Comment


      • #4
        LOS ANGELES - A high school in California was locked down after about 600 students fought in a lunchtime brawl that had to be quelled by police in riot gear.

        The apparently gang-related fight started around noon Friday at Locke High School in Los Angeles, school district spokeswoman Nadia Gonzalez said. Four students were arrested. Several students were injured but nobody was hospitalized, officials said.

        Music teacher Reggie Smith described to the Los Angeles Times a chaotic scene that made it hard to distinguish between the trouble makers and those trying to avoid the mayhem.

        "The kids were crazy, running from place to place jumping on other kids," Smith said. "Some of my kids were crying because they were walking to class with kids and they got jumped. The officers on campus were overwhelmed."

        The Times reported school officials separated Latino students from black students.

        Campus police were overwhelmed and called on the Los Angeles Police Department for help with security. About 50 Los Angeles police officers, some of them in riot gear, responded to the school.

        Gonzalez said students were kept in their classrooms and no parents or outsiders were allowed on campus.


        "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
        "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm sure Locke HS wishes all it had to worry about was a few non-pledgers.

          On a personal note, I got in a little trouble back in 6th grade for not standing during the pledge once. That ended when they found the reason was my dog had died.
          I'm consitently stupid- Japher
          I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Wezil

            The Times reported school officials separated Latino students from black students.
            No wonder they were rioting
            Blah

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Wezil
              LOS ANGELES - A high school in California was locked down after about 600 students fought in a lunchtime brawl that had to be quelled by police in riot gear.

              The apparently gang-related fight started around noon Friday at Locke High School in Los Angeles, school district spokeswoman Nadia Gonzalez said. Four students were arrested. Several students were injured but nobody was hospitalized, officials said.

              Music teacher Reggie Smith described to the Los Angeles Times a chaotic scene that made it hard to distinguish between the trouble makers and those trying to avoid the mayhem.

              "The kids were crazy, running from place to place jumping on other kids," Smith said. "Some of my kids were crying because they were walking to class with kids and they got jumped. The officers on campus were overwhelmed."

              The Times reported school officials separated Latino students from black students.

              Campus police were overwhelmed and called on the Los Angeles Police Department for help with security. About 50 Los Angeles police officers, some of them in riot gear, responded to the school.

              Gonzalez said students were kept in their classrooms and no parents or outsiders were allowed on campus.


              http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/20...526801-ap.html
              Bah! New Jersey kids would kick their asses. Of course it's totally insane. A pack of hyenas has more civic responsability. They should use hidden cameras to determine which kids are the gang bangers and seperate them into their own high security school. The other kids might then be able to learn something if they aren't terrorized by gangs.
              Long time member @ Apolyton
              Civilization player since the dawn of time

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              • #8
                Yeah, I hate it when lazy kids can't even be bothered to stand for the short pledge. I knew one who was so damned lazy he attached wheels to his chair so he wouldn't even need to stand up to move around. He never could explain why he hated America so much.
                1011 1100
                Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                • #9
                  Hmmm, I just realized my position on this travesty could be misinterpreted from my thread title and comment.
                  We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
                  If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
                  Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I wonder, if not believing in America would be acceptable reason?
                    I've allways wanted to play "Russ Meyer's Civilization"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SpencerH
                      Hmmm, I just realized my position on this travesty could be misinterpreted from my thread title and comment.
                      So far you haven't said anything coherent.
                      I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                      I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I wouldn't have a prob with liking my country, just that I'm not a fan of silly (IMO) rituals.
                        Blah

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          When I lived in America, we stood and recited the Pledge every school day, despite being a British citizen and therefore pledging allegiance to a foreign power. When I then moved to Canada, we stood for the playing of the national anthem at highschool after the end of first lesson.

                          Now, many years later, I can entirely see the differences. In Canada, I'd have no problem standing for the anthem as it was respectful to a country that I quite liked and was treating me fine. In America, it was somewhere between empty ritual and obedience. You said the Pledge because that is what you did without question.

                          I wish now that I'd sat down at least once and pointed out it wasn't my country and while I'd stand and be respectful to America, I wasn't going to pledge allegiance to it.
                          Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
                          -Richard Dawkins

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Theben


                            So far you haven't said anything coherent.
                            It's a gift.
                            We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
                            If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
                            Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              When I was in school, I did everything except say the "under God" part. I don't think anyone ever noticed/cared.
                              Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                              "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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