The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

[Zkribbler]

I pledge allegiance to the representation,
of the land in which I live;

Here's my problem with this:

Liberty stands upon two legs: democracy and individual rights. Your reference to only "representation" ignores the second leg of liberty: individual rights.

When we pledge, we should pledge alligence to the Constitution, which embodies both a democratic republic
and individual rights.

[snoopy369]

ZK: representation = flag ... not that kind of representation

Again, I'd totally reword it, and probably remove the pledge 'to' the actual flag (but include it in some other way), as well as the word 'allegiance'. I was just trying to show how the pledge itself was not the problem, but the specific words and meanings of those words

[Arrian]

We shouldn't be having kids pledge allegiance to anything, full stop. The whole concept is irredeemable.

You want kids to grow up with respect for what America is all about? Teach them about it. If America warrants respect, it'll get it. If not, perhaps some things need to change, hmm?

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Here's an idea. Let's have a country that's worthy of the PoA.

[snoopy369]

Agathon: You're free to think and say that, largely as a result of our country's existence But feel free to keep doing so. We don't ask for thanks or anything.

If I were to reword it ignoring the actual pledge, I'd do something like this:

As a free citizen of the United States of America, for which this flag stands,
I vow to respect the ideals upon which this country was founded:
Freedom, Liberty, Equality, Justice;
and to participate in the free and open society in which I am a member,
fulfilling those obligations that arise from freedom with pride and respect,
and defending the principles and ideals of this nation.


That would be my Pledge of Allegiance

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Arrian
We shouldn't be having kids pledge allegiance to anything, full stop. The whole concept is irredeemable.

You want kids to grow up with respect for what America is all about? Teach them about it. If America warrants respect, it'll get it. If not, perhaps some things need to change, hmm?

-Arrian

Again - I think schools should teach values (not just facts). Values like 'thinking about what you believe in', for example... as well as liberty, freedom, equality, justice, etc. If we don't teach that in school, we're not going to raise good children. (Parents should also teach these things, but it's as important to teach it in school - both because not all parents will, and because it is important to define what society expects.)

The idea of not teaching any values is an idiotic 'liberal' idea that not even most liberals would support.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
As a free citizen of the United States of America, for which this flag stands,
I vow to respect the ideals upon which this country was founded:
Freedom, Liberty, Equality, Justice;

Why not eliminate "upon which this country was founded?" The DoI was just propaganda to solicite support for war. I think that's the main issue here. The PoA is dripping with blood, and so is the DoI.

[Arrian]

liberty, freedom, equality, justice

Good stuff that. What does that have to do with pledging allegiance?

-Arrian

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The PoA is dripping with blood, and so is the DoI.

So's a woman's crotch--five days a month--but that's still where we came from, like it or not. Commie.

[snoopy369]

Kid: Because I believe this country was founded based on those ideals. I thought commies were supposed to support violent insurrection anyway?

Arrian: I am eliminating the word 'allegiance' because I don't think it's supposed to be 'allegiance' (implying a feudal relationship, practically) but rather agreeing on a common set of values we agree are important and should be upheld. That was my (non-fascist) point

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Elok

So's a woman's crotch--five days a month--but that's still where we came from, like it or not. Commie.

...

Snoopy, you're still trying to redeem the unredeemable, sorry. On this we simply disagree.

-Arrian

[Wezil]

We've lost snoopy.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

what a fun discussion

Danas, kada postajem pionir,
dajem časnu pionirsku reč -
da ću marljivo učiti i raditi,
poštovati roditelje i starije,
i biti veran i iskren drug,
koji drži datu reč.
Da ću voleti našu domovinu, samoupravnu SFRJ,
da ću razvijati bratstvo i jedinstvo
i ideje za koje se borio drug Tito.
Da ću ceniti sve ljude sveta koji žele slobodu i mir!

In English:

Today, as I become a Pioneer,
I give my Pioneer's word of honour -
That I will study and work tirelessly,
respect parents and my seniors,
and be a loyal and honest friend [or "comrade"].
That I will love our independent homeland SFRY.
That I will spread brotherhood and unity
and the principles for which comrade Tito fought.
And that I will value all peoples of the world who respect freedom and peace!

I had to say this, only once, and that was Commie Yugoslavia... (and it's at least twice as good as the US one ) that sadly did not stop people from killing each other when the time was ripe, even though every single one of them pledged this...

USA - funny democratic country, just on this account alone, never lived there so I did not know about this peculiarity, but the only reason for that pledge of yours is some sort of indoctrination, my guess without reading up on it is that "whoever set it up" thought that the federation could split again, and that there are not enough Christian values in the country as it is, so it's up and running in schools... in principle "who cares" but this is in a clear authoritarian state tradition.

[Elok]

WRT the Pledge, I favor continuing it. Not because it does any good to have rote recitation of long-ago-memorized words, but because it gives teenagers something innocuous to rebel against without risking severe injury, STDs, pregnancy or bad trips. Instead they can show their independence by sitting in their chairs with their arms crossed, daring Teacher to call them on it.

[Wezil]

Elok - Don't forget the mohawk haircut.