Have I mentioned that I Hate Unions?

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Spiffor
That's the problem with market economy as a whole. The price is determined by supply and demand, not by performance.

Employers can usually pick and choose though. (And well-qualified employees can also pick and chose.) Employees generally can't slack off and expect raises, advancement, or even job security.

Once you're dealing with a union, you get the whole union, or none. That's a problem. Removes employee incentive to work. Much like how monopolies remove incentive for companies to innovate.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Aeson
Employers can usually pick and choose though. (And well-qualified employees can also pick and chose.) Employees generally can't slack off and expect raises, advancement, or even job security.

Employees are threatened of being fired, or not advanced if they slack off indeed.

However, an employee who does the job, who shows up on time at the office etc. (which is the bulk of normal people) will see his wage depend almost exclusively on supply and demand.

For example, right now in France, we have a shortage of computer engineers, and they have a pretty good wage as a result. However, there are many computer students, and pretty much everybody in the field expects the wages to drop progressively as they enter the job market. That is completely disconnected from their actual performance.

Another example is construction. Construction workers are a fairly rare commodity in France, and they have a pretty good pay in comparison to other workers. However, should the construction market collapse like it did in 1993, the wages would drop quite dramatically, regardless of individual performance.

[Asher]

For example, right now in France, we have a shortage of computer engineers, and they have a pretty good wage as a result. However, there are many computer students, and pretty much everybody in the field expects the wages to drop progressively as they enter the job market. That is completely disconnected from their actual performance.

Brutal example.

There are multiple instances of supply and demand. Yes, a lack of computer engineers will result in higher wages. But you are completely oblivious to the fact that the better computer engineers will earn more than others.

There's multiple levels of supply and demand: supply and demand for people with the minimum qualifications ("computer engineer"), and supply and demand for more competent computer engineers.

People who work at consulting shops or Google or Microsoft or Apple make a lot more than people who work at the Government of France, for instance. Regardless of supply/demand for the trade as a whole.

The unions basically make this a 1 dimensional supply/demand. The workers will get wages depending on how rare the workers are, and there is no additional supply/demand curve for competence.

[Aeson]

Yes, I was talking about within a given field.

Variation in pay for a field in general is a good and bad thing IMO. It motivates people towards careers which are in demand, but often to the point of overkill, diluting the market. More gradual and limited swings would be better.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Asher
I can't walk to work because it's too far. I can't take a cab because everyone's taking a cab.

Have you considered one of these, old chap?

[Asher]

Biking 15km per day is not at all practical for me. I sweat a lot and there's no showers at work, that'd be brutal for both me and my coworkers...

This isn't even discussing the fact that this isn't a very bike friendly city. Bikers need to drive on the side of the road with cars, which is very dangerous and slow.

[Cort Haus]

Also: It seems like the prodigal Spiff has returned in my absence.

Aeson on this thread

Wiggie sticking up for the workers : 11/10 for surrealism.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Asher
Biking 15km per day is not at all practical for me. I sweat a lot and there's no showers at work, that'd be brutal for both me and my coworkers...

This isn't even discussing the fact that this isn't a very bike friendly city. Bikers need to drive on the side of the road with cars, which is very dangerous and slow.

I sympathise with the plight of the cyclist in a busy city, which is why I walk - about 12-13k a day in total. If an old git who drinks and smokes can manage that every day in about 50 mins each way I can't see what is stopping a strapping young lad like yourself strolling into work for a few days to beat a transport crisis. I never had you down as a wuss, Asher.

And if the walk makes you sweat, I'm, sure its nothing that a towel and a bottle of deodorant can't fix.

[Asher]

You walk 12-13km a day total.

This would be walking 30km a day just to get to work.

And are you aware of the climate of Canada?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Asher
Bikers need to drive on the side of the road with cars, which is very dangerous and slow.

No bike lanes where you are? That sucks. Where I live there aren't even any sidewalks. When I walk I have to walk in the road sometimes. I'm glad I'm white or I would probably have been ran over all ready. Luckily I have a car now.

[Kuciwalker]

Asher can also probably work from home for a few days, given his job.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Asher can also probably work from home for a few days, given his job.

Few days a week, yes.

Can't tues through thurs.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Asher
You walk 12-13km a day total.

This would be walking 30km a day just to get to work.

Don't you live in those high rises on High Park Avenue?

[Asher]

Yes.

And how did you know, did I tell you before?

And more importantly, why do you remember?

[Arrian]

Plus Electric Boat in Connecticut

Only still open, IIRC, because there was a political uproar when they tried to close it.

As for the rest...

The deal the union leadership agreed to sounds fair, but obviously I don't know the history on this. Maybe there is a good reason for the membership's rejection of the deal. I do kinda doubt it, but it's possible.

-Arrian