Have I mentioned that I Hate Unions?

[snoopy369]

Intellectual elitist != intellectual. An intellectual elitist is someone who looks down on those they see as not as intelligent/skilled as themselves. That does not have any bearing on their actual intellect or skill, though I choose to make no comment here about any given person's intellect or skill. I'll leave that to KH

[Asher]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Retail - and more so waitstaff - is a very skilled position. That is, there is a skill to customer service and to selling things to people that requires learning. A high fraction - probably over 80% - of retail empolyees do not have much skill in this, obviously including yourself, but that does not mean it cannot be done better. The difference is that a minimally skilled retail employee does not do as much damage as a minimally skilled bus driver; so people are allowed to do it with no skill.

I could sell you a used pen.

This may surprise you, but selling is an important skill to a consultant. Except instead of selling toilet paper and pens, I sell multi-million dollar software projects. Which one of these is more difficult? Just out of curiosity.

As a former retail manager, though, I can tell you that there absolutely is skill involved, and I had employees who definitely contributed to our bottom line in a positive manner because of their skills.

Is this actually lack of skill or just dumbasses? You seem to equate "skill" to someone who is passably smart. Not the same thing.

The fact that you were a "retail manager" at such a young age speaks volumes about what kind of skill is involved.

The sort of intellectual elitism you show is rather depressing, as it's what is driving the intellectual divide between 'intellectual elitists' and people who despise 'intellectual elitists' for their condescending attitudes and ignorant opinions. You could work in retail probably about as well as I could fly a plane; but I don't suggest either of us do that.

The difference is I don't claim to be able to fly a plane.

First things first -- if put in a position (eg, a dead pilot and no one else on board), I'm reasonably certain I could fly a plane. I understand the physics in general (as well as contextually relevant things such as wind shear, dutch rolls, etc) and I've done many, many hours in Flight Simulator games with the virtual cockpit enabled on Cessnas and Pipers all the way up to A320s and 777s.

Second, what do you mean by retail. Do you mean the kind of people working at Walmart stocking their shelves and telling me where to find paper? I could do that.

Do you mean managerial level responsibilities, like telling people to tell people to stock shelves and where to find the paper? I could do that.

Do you mean upper managerial level responsibilities, where you determine how much paper to buy and when to order it so your managers could tell people to stock shelves and where to find the paper? I could probably do that too.

The simple fact is, some jobs are just plain easy. They don't require a special skillset beyond a day or two of "training". Bus driving is one of these jobs. Retail is another. As is waitstaff.

You can call this "intellectual elitism" if you want, but frankly, it's common sense. There's a reason why retail is the first job of most high school students, and it's not 'cause it's hard.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If it weren't for unions, we'd still be living in 3rd world squalor, and unions are the only thing keeping us from going back.

Much like if it weren't for the army/police, we'd be living in anarchy

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


That's not to mention the class 1 drivers. I don't know if anyone here has tried to get the certification, but that is far tougher then a regular drivers license. The reason I say so is because I nearly got a job with the post office to drive their trucks. It wasn't what I applied for and I didn't get the job, but I found it way more difficult then my papers at university.

First of all, what did you study at university past first year?

Have you actually met any postal workers? You're not doing yourself any favour here by bringing them up as an example of skilled workers.

You wanna know how to tell if a position is a skilled position? Look at the job postings. If you look up TTC Bus driver ads, or Greyhound ads, they all don't have any minimum requirements or skills posted. Frequently, like the Greyhound ones I found here, emphasize emphatically that you get paid while they train you. To me, this indicates it's not a skilled position because virtually anyone can sign up, go through the training in X days, and become a Greyhound driver.

Contrast this to a plumber, an electrician, and engineer, a doctor, a lawyer, a biologist, or even a social worker. All of these require more skill beyond a requisite "____ for dummies" course.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Retail - and more so waitstaff - is a very skilled position. That is, there is a skill to customer service and to selling things to people that requires learning. A high fraction - probably over 80% - of retail empolyees do not have much skill in this, obviously including yourself, but that does not mean it cannot be done better. The difference is that a minimally skilled retail employee does not do as much damage as a minimally skilled bus driver; so people are allowed to do it with no skill.

As a former retail manager, though, I can tell you that there absolutely is skill involved, and I had employees who definitely contributed to our bottom line in a positive manner because of their skills.

The sort of intellectual elitism you show is rather depressing, as it's what is driving the intellectual divide between 'intellectual elitists' and people who despise 'intellectual elitists' for their condescending attitudes and ignorant opinions. You could work in retail probably about as well as I could fly a plane; but I don't suggest either of us do that.

The difference is I don't claim to be able to fly a plane.

I think you two are just using skilled differently. Skilled labor usually refers to labor that requires a large amount of formal or semi-formal training to be able to do, not labor that requires some degree of innate talent or skill but otherwise can be learned in a very short period of time.

Retail, waitstaff, etc. are not skilled labor in the normal meaning of the term.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=skilled%20labor:

skilled labor
–noun
1. labor that requires special training for its satisfactory performance.
2. the workers employed in such labor.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I did say most university graduates, and I'll stick by what I said. I do believe it takes more skill to drive 50 thousand kms in a bus then it does to graduate from university.

Yes, I would say there are certainly exceptions to this case, but they are in the minority of the total number of degrees given out.

I certainly think the proportion of people out there who could drive a bus like that would be less then the number who would graduate from university, and I say that as a graduate myself.

Ben, quite clearly from your posts in this thread, it's very much understandable that you wouldfind driving a bus or mail truck is incredibly difficult.

BTW, you clearly went to a very crap university and studied terrible subjects.

[Kuciwalker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skilled_labor

Skill is a measure of a worker's expertise, specialization, wages, and supervisory capacity. Skilled workers are generally more trained, higher paid, and have more responsibilities than unskilled workers.[1]

Skilled workers have long had historical import (see Division of labor) as masons, carpenters, blacksmiths, bakers, brewers, coopers, printers and other occupations that are economically productive. Skilled workers were often politically active through their craft guilds.

[Asher]

Originally posted by CrONoS


Driving a bus, no?

I spoke about obtaining Class I driver license (which I do not have) but from an anecdotal experience; one of the worst driver I know, succeed the test. That spoke a lot to me...

Ditto. I only know of a handful of drivers, but frankly they were scary. Aggressive (like most bus drivers) and frequently ran lights. Just today I watched a bunch of busses run red lights in downtown Toronto.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Garth Vader
My dad drives a city bus. I graduated from university. From everything he has told me I could do his job and he couldn't do mine.

Ditto, 'cept it was my uncle. He was a Trans-Canada Trucker for years. Drove big rigs through the Rocky Mountains all the way to Nova Scotia. Joked about how easy it was.

And Big Rig drivers >>> Bus drivers.

[snoopy369]

I would suggest selling toilet paper is much harder. Not selling as in handing-to-people-who-want-it, but convincing people who DON'T want toilet paper who do.

By retail, I mean salesmen. I mean the folks who when you walk in, they make you comfortable, help you find what you need, upsell items to you, and generally make you want to come back; as well as handle customers who are angry or upset with courtesy and make THEM want to come back.

Managerial responsibilities aside - which I would be shocked if you could do effectively, given what I know of you, but we have had that discussion fruitlessly in the past - even that requires skill, and most intelligent people can't do it. Particularly people who are very intelligent and very self-confident; they nearly always have extreme difficulty handling upset customers, largely because they think the customers are morons (probably true but beside the point). I've managed hundreds of retail employees, and some of my best employees were very far down the IQ scale; very few of my employees who were high performers had university degrees or were high on the 'intellectual' scale.

Again ... that's pretty much the definition of intellectual elitism. You think you're so smart and everyone else is so dumb that you could do their jobs, without having a meaningful understanding of their jobs. Sure you could stock shelves with a few hours' training ... but so could most of them write SQL code with a few hours' training. Their code wouldn't work WELL, mind you, but your stocking wouldn't either.

Waitstaff... Go work a few saturday morning shifts at a busy breakfast joint somewhere. Let me know ahead of time, I'll come scrape you off the floor afterwards.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I describe myself as an intellectual. Asher is obviously an elitist, but he has nothing of an intellectual, so please don't put him in the same bag as me. Thank you

You consider yourself an intellectual, and that's precisely why you aren't one. You -- and to a far greater extent, Agathon -- are classic examples of what are known as "pseudo-intellectuals".

There's so many obvious flaws in communism that any supporter of it immediately eliminates themselves from contention for the title of "intellectual".

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Asher
Second, what do you mean by retail. Do you mean the kind of people working at Walmart stocking their shelves and telling me where to find paper? I could do that.

How long before you flipped out and started offing people who couldn't find the paper isle though?

[Kuciwalker]

Jesus Christ, snoopy, can you read?

Skilled labor is not "labor that requires skill". It's labor that requires specialized training. Being a waiter does not require specialized training, so it is not classified under "skilled labor" when anyone but you or Ben uses the term.

Saying that X is not skilled labor doesn't mean there's no 'skill' involved.

Almost universally, skilled labor pays more than unskilled labor, because:

1) Skilled labor costs more than unskilled labor (you have to spend a long time training the person, or they have to pay for training themselves).
2) In the general case people who can perform skilled labor at a satisfactory level are rarer than those who can perform unskilled labor at a satisfactory level.
3) Skilled labor is generally more useful than unskilled labor, in that a skilled laborer generally provides a service that is simply more valuable than the unskilled laborer (e.g. legal advice vs. waiting on my table).

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


I think you two are just using skilled differently. Skilled labor usually refers to labor that requires a large amount of formal or semi-formal training to be able to do, not labor that requires some degree of innate talent or skill but otherwise can be learned in a very short period of time.

Retail, waitstaff, etc. are not skilled labor in the normal meaning of the term.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=skilled%20labor:

skilled labor
–noun
1. labor that requires special training for its satisfactory performance.
2. the workers employed in such labor.

I suppose i'm objecting to the common definition of the term, but more accurately I'm objecting to Asher's opinions, terminology aside. I certainly think that being a waiter takes a significant degree of talent/skill AND training (to do well, in a busy environment). I've done all three for several years each (waitstaff, retail employee, retail management), and although I'm quite intelligent and have a university degree and such, I'd say I'm only particularly skilled at the second (retail customer service); I was a mediocre retail manager at best, and a capable but not excellent waiter.

I suppose the true difference is that 'skilled labor' by the common definition, you have to have some significant degree of training to do at all, while a service job you can do with little training, but can't necessarily do well. Unfortunately we don't really value doing service jobs well, until we experience bad customer service...

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Jesus Christ, snoopy, can you read?

Skilled labor is not "labor that requires skill". It's labor that requires specialized training. Being a waiter does not require specialized training, so it is not classified under "skilled labor" when anyone but you or Ben uses the term.

Saying that X is not skilled labor doesn't mean there's no 'skill' involved.

I crossposted with you, sir. Calm down. I largely answered this in my previous post to this one.

I would argue that waitstaff is almost an exception though - most folks given a busy waitperson shift the first night on the job would do about as well as the random untrained passenger taking the controls of the 747. It would be a tossup as to which person killed more people.