CanPol: Meet the New Boss

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Yes, that's because they support the law as it is written.

Me, the so-called Conservative shill doesn't agree with the law passed by the Conservatives, because I think it sets a terrible precedent.

I too have issues with the election laws in this country, but you and I aren't the governing party. There is a difference between a citizen questioning the merits of a law and a government willing to disregard a law.

Ok, then put ME on ignore.

The privilege is reserved for one very special poster. You don't even come close.

Yes, and a bureaucracy that is being criticized by the Conservatives has no motivation to embarrass them?

Oh geez, the poor picked on Conservative defence again. What a paranoid bunch they are. 90%+ of the problems this government faces is of it's own damn making including the problems with the various bureaucracies this government is warring with. The political interference from the Conservatives has been apalling on a number of fronts but the swivel servants are the problem? Please.

They explicitly commented saying that they felt that senate elections were illegal and improper. Seems to me that they are stonewalling, and this is retaliation.

Maybe b/c the reforms talked about by Conservatives have no basis in the Constitution? Maybe? Elections Canada is absolutely right in concluding that Senate elections are not their mandate b/c they aren't.

"retaliation" Yep, the paranoia.

True, which is why the only irregularities in 12 years are from the Conservatives.

I call BS. Link please.

I'm going back to sleep. It would only be news if the bureaucracy actually fined the Liberals for election irregularities, rather then retaliating for the earlier senate election flap.

"election irregularities"? Examples please.

Umm, I am a Canadian taxpayer.

I don't see it as either, 'a scam', or anything of the sort.

Then you obviously don't understand the issue. The federal party exceeded the limit by funneling money to the local ridings for "local" ads which were anything but local and were in fact federal ads. The local ridings then "bought" these ads from the federal money they were just given (the "in and out" scheme) and then turned around and wrote this expense off with Elections Canada for taxpayer reimbursement.

You may not see this as a scam but most non-Conservative schills do.

As I said earlier, I think parties should be permitted to spend whatever amount they need to for the election. I also don't believe they should get government funding to run in the election, they should rely on whatever they manage to fundraise themselves.

This of course, makes me opposed to both the liberal way, and the conservative way.

Why do you continue on with these red herrings? I personally think I should be allowed to bed down with a different woman of my choosing every night. To do so however I am sure I would be in violation of a law or two in making it happen.

It doesn't matter if you or I don't like the law. I expect a political party aspiring to be the government to obey the law.

I do. As I said right from the beginning, I don't believe they should have any limits on campaign spending, so I don't really care when elections canada said they overspent. I would say the same if it was the Liberals.

I don't believe I've ever said that I support so called campaign finance reform of any way shape or form.

And again, the same distraction from the issue as above.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by embalmer42


Hmmm - do you follow the laws you don't agree with?

Ooh, a drive by shooting from embalmer/

Nope, and I never claimed I did.

Personally, considering how much you smoke and how little actual exercise you've had lately, I'd be surprised if you made it out of the starting gates without triggering a heart attack

That's not nice.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Would you run as an independent?

No, most definitely as a reborn Rhino.

https://www.rhinoparty.com

Speaking of Elections Canada hassling the innocent, just look at what EC did to the beloved Rhinos.

In 1993 Parliament passed Bill C-114, which amended the Election Act in a manner that

can best be described as draconian... reprehensible... sinister... anti-democratic.

Bill C-114 received all-party support (boo, hiss, shame, shame on this house!)

As a result, Canada's most beloved political party - the legendary, fun-loving Parti

Rhinoceros Party - was deregistered. The Rhino became extinct. That was the intent of

Bill C-114.



The courts have since ruled that most of the most heinous amendments to the

Election Act were unconstitutional.



Today, 14 years later, we call upon the legions of Rhino lovers (um... there may be a

better way to phrase that but... ) to help BRING THE RHINO BACK FROM EXTINCTION.


Surely in a country of 30 odd million people (30 million odd people?) there are 250

Canadians who are willing to become the founding members of the re-animated Rhino Party.



If you want to have the honour being a founding member; if you want to right the

wrong that was done by the evil-doers of the 34th Parliament of Canada; if you want

to rise up and gleefully shriek, "Long live the Rhino Party!", all you have to do is print

out and fill in this form and send it to:



Rhino Party

# 219 2001 Wall Street

Vancouver BC

V5L 5E4



The forms will be sent to Elections Canada (boo, hiss). Elections Canada will contact

you to assure that you, indeed, are a proud member of the Rhino Party. You will need

to confirm that you are a Rhino and... we're back in business!

Let the games continue!

[Ben Kenobi]

I too have issues with the election laws in this country, but you and I aren't the governing party. There is a difference between a citizen questioning the merits of a law and a government willing to disregard a law.

I was hoping the media coverage would focus on the problems with the campaign reform law. It's a mess.

Instead, we have gotcha coverage.

Oh Noes! The Conservatives are stuck in the well again!!11!11! ZOMFG!

It get's old the first few times.

Oh geez, the poor picked on Conservative defence again. What a paranoid bunch they are. 90%+ of the problems this government faces is of it's own damn making including the problems with the various bureaucracies this government is warring with. The political interference from the Conservatives has been apalling on a number of fronts but the swivel servants are the problem? Please.

The civil servants are the problem here, not the conservatives. The civil servants should be doing their job, not *****ing about OMG, it's teh evil Harper, as they have been doing.

Maybe b/c the reforms talked about by Conservatives have no basis in the Constitution? Maybe? Elections Canada is absolutely right in concluding that Senate elections are not their mandate b/c they aren't.

Why on earth does Elections Canada have issues with senate reform, and having that as part of their mandate? I don't see the problem in making this country more democratic, apparently the bureaucrats in charge of Elections Canada have a problem with it.

Their job is supposed to be non-partisan, not fire off memos dissing the Conservative plans for electoral reform. I don't see these two issues, which involve the exact same branch of the government so closely together as unrelated.

Then you obviously don't understand the issue. The federal party exceeded the limit by funneling money to the local ridings for "local" ads which were anything but local and were in fact federal ads.

So?

The local ridings then "bought" these ads from the federal money they were just given (the "in and out" scheme) and then turned around and wrote this expense off with Elections Canada for taxpayer reimbursement.

Fine. Then cut all the parties off of federal election funds. No one gets any reinbursement for election expenses.

Problem solved.

I don't see one article out there calling for this, gee I wonder why. More piggies at the trough.

Why do you continue on with these red herrings? I personally think I should be allowed to bed down with a different woman of my choosing every night. To do so however I am sure I would be in violation of a law or two in making it happen.

Umm, I don't believe there is any law against doing just that...if you have the money, then yes you could have a different girl in bed with you every night.

It doesn't matter if you or I don't like the law. I expect a political party aspiring to be the government to obey the law.

Dude, they've been the government for two years now.

Or do you have Harper derangement syndrome? I didn't know it was contagious.

[embalmer42]

Canada desperately needs a return of the Rhinos!

It might actually make elections more interesting again.

(notice I did not say useful?)

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I was hoping the media coverage would focus on the problems with the campaign reform law. It's a mess.

Instead, we have gotcha coverage.

Oh Noes! The Conservatives are stuck in the well again!!11!11! ZOMFG!

It get's old the first few times.

So we're going to misdirect and go after the media now are we?

You're right, it gets old the first few times.

The civil servants are the problem here, not the conservatives. The civil servants should be doing their job, not *****ing about OMG, it's teh evil Harper, as they have been doing.

They are trying to do their jobs under a very interventionist government. Unfortunately doing your job under this government will get you sacked (I'll provide links if you want to argue this point). No Ben, you have it backward.

Why on earth does Elections Canada have issues with senate reform, and having that as part of their mandate? I don't see the problem in making this country more democratic, apparently the bureaucrats in charge of Elections Canada have a problem with it.

B/c it's not their mandate. Reform the senate (probably requires Constitutional reform) and it will become the mandate of EC. Until then, it isn't. Our senators are not elected.

Their job is supposed to be non-partisan, not fire off memos dissing the Conservative plans for electoral reform. I don't see these two issues, which involve the exact same branch of the government so closely together as unrelated.

B/c again, the Conservative government is intervening in the bureaucracy by asking this independent body to perform a role not in their mandate (Senate elections) b/c this government is trying to appease a western base that wants to reform the senate. It isn't that easy Ben. If the Conservatives want to reform the Constitution they are going to have to get their hands dirty.

So?

In some quarters that is considered fraud.

Fine. Then cut all the parties off of federal election funds. No one gets any reinbursement for election expenses.

Problem solved.

I don't see one article out there calling for this, gee I wonder why. More piggies at the trough.

Again with the red herring.

The Conservatives agreed to the rules Ben then went around those rules to soak taxpayers for money to which they were not entitled. They wanted a bigger trough.

Umm, I don't believe there is any law against doing just that...if you have the money, then yes you could have a different girl in bed with you every night.

*cough* "of my choosing"

I'm sure there would be one or two that money couldn't buy. As I haven't anywhere near that kind of money anyway (no making up facts ) I'm sure illegal means would be required.

Dude, they've been the government for two years now.

Or do you have Harper derangement syndrome? I didn't know it was contagious.

Dude, the allegations are from before they were elected.

I think you have the syndrome.


edit -

Btw, I missed your examples of Liberal election irregularities that went unnoticed by EC as well as the link evidencing EC only going after Conservatives.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by embalmer42
Canada desperately needs a return of the Rhinos!

It might actually make elections more interesting again.

(notice I did not say useful?)

You should run, um, sit for office as well.

I'm sure the position is open. The climate in your part of the country isn't favourable to Rhinos.

Become a candidate and I'll put forward a motion for the future Rhino government to move your riding south.

[Ben Kenobi]

Unfortunately doing your job under this government will get you sacked (I'll provide links if you want to argue this point). No Ben, you have it backward.

Really? This government is willing to fire liberal civil servants?

Sounds like I should fire up the old CV.

B/c it's not their mandate. Reform the senate (probably requires Constitutional reform) and it will become the mandate of EC. Until then, it isn't. Our senators are not elected.

So why should Elections Canada comment on their opposition to senate reform?

B/c again, the Conservative government is intervening in the bureaucracy by asking this independent body to perform a role not in their mandate (Senate elections) b/c this government is trying to appease a western base that wants to reform the senate.

This government is trying to get a protocol set up that would work for senate elections. How it would work when the elections become constitutional. That's not beyond their mandate, and honestly, their attitude is very unprofessional.

It isn't that easy Ben. If the Conservatives want to reform the Constitution they are going to have to get their hands dirty.

I believe I said so earlier. I don't see why Elections Canada is reluctant to figure out how the senate elections can be done.

The Conservatives agreed to the rules Ben then went around those rules to soak taxpayers for money to which they were not entitled. They wanted a bigger trough.

Then take away the trough for everybody. Why doesn't the media say this is an option? I think they benefit from having access to taxpayer dollars especially during election season.

I'm sure there would be one or two that money couldn't buy. As I haven't anywhere near that kind of money anyway (no making up facts ) I'm sure illegal means would be required.

Ahh ok. Just saying there isn't any law against it, provided she wants it too.

Dude, the allegations are from before they were elected.

You were referring to the current Conservative party.

And yes, the liberals have an issue with them winning the election. I saw all the headlines today.

"conservatives steal election!"

Please, don't make me gag anymore.

Btw, I missed your examples of Liberal election irregularities that went unnoticed by EC as well as the link evidencing EC only going after Conservatives.

How long before Gomery came out? It wasn't until Chretien wanted to stick it to Martin.

[Wezil]

A primer on the alleged misconduct of the federal Conservative party in the last federal election:

WHAT - Elections Canada alleges that the Conservative party organized a program to allow it to spend more on election ads than allowed under the rules through an "in-and-out" scheme. This program shifted $1.3 million in expenses to 67 local candidates who had room under election spending limits to pay for advertising, but didn't have the cash.

WHO - The elections watchdog says the party sent the money to these individual campaigns, which then sent it right back, supposedly as a payment for regional ads. But the money actually was spent by the party on national ads, Elections Canada alleges.

HOW - The agency says the party transferred money to 67 campaign bank accounts "and within a very short span of time, these funds or funds closely approximating the amounts deposited, were transferred back out of these accounts."

WHY - The elections watchdog says this plan allowed the national party to overspend its legal limits by about $1.1 million. And 65 of the 67 the individual campaigns involved got to claim 60 per cent reimbursement from the government for the phantom ad money that just passed through their bank accounts. The other two campaigns didn't get enough votes to qualify for reimbursements.

PENALTIES - Elections Canada alleges that the program violated a number of sections of the Elections Act. Convictions could bring a maximum penalty of up to five years in jail and a $5,000 fine for the financial agents involved and a $25,000 fine for the party. Most violations of the act bring fines, usually $2,000 or less.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/04/21/5347446-cp.html

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Really? This government is willing to fire liberal civil servants?

Sounds like I should fire up the old CV.

You have absolutely no concept of an independent civil service do you?

So why should Elections Canada comment on their opposition to senate reform?


This government is trying to get a protocol set up that would work for senate elections. How it would work when the elections become constitutional. That's not beyond their mandate, and honestly, their attitude is very unprofessional.

I'll call BS again. Link please.

I believe I said so earlier. I don't see why Elections Canada is reluctant to figure out how the senate elections can be done.

There are probably lots of things they could do. Senate elections are not in their mandate. Change that first.

Then take away the trough for everybody. Why doesn't the media say this is an option? I think they benefit from having access to taxpayer dollars especially during election season.

*sigh* I knew this would be painful.

THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE!!!

You were referring to the current Conservative party.

Yes. And they were the party wanting to be the government when the allegations were said to have ocurred. Don't be obtuse.

And yes, the liberals have an issue with them winning the election. I saw all the headlines today.

"conservatives steal election!"

Please, don't make me gag anymore.

Colour me shocked. The Liberals will make political hay of this?

(reread the thread title if you think I like Liberals)

How long before Gomery came out? It wasn't until Chretien wanted to stick it to Martin.

And this proves elections Canada knew about it? I asked you for a link. A news item from the time would show the information was public. Btw, this contradicts your second claim (still unsourced *cough*) that only Conservatives are targets.

[Ben Kenobi]

You have absolutely no concept of an independent civil service do you?

It's like a perpetual motion machine. I can imagine one in my head, but in the real world it's impossible.

I'm glad to see Harper is willing to restore the balance within the civil service so that we get a few conservatives in there.

I'll call BS again. Link please.

Give me a sec.

Ok, here's the deal. Harper wanted to set up a means to implement senate elections with Elections Canada, similar to what has already happened. The idea being that when the provinces decide to hold senate elections, the protocols would already be in place.

Harper can't even elect senators without the agreement of the individual provinces, so rather then having 10 different setups, he figured it was better to do it just once.

I'm not sure why you believe he could simply 'impose senate reform'. Without the constitution, all he can do is agree to respect the will of the people, but he is not bound to do so.

There are probably lots of things they could do. Senate elections are not in their mandate. Change that first.

I can see what Harper is trying to do and it's a necessary step. Elections Canada should stop stonewalling and do their jobs.

Colour me shocked. The Liberals will make political hay of this?

Hence my disdain of the whole 'scandal'. I am really getting tired of the hyperbole.

And this proves elections Canada knew about it? I asked you for a link. A news item from the time would show the information was public. Btw, this contradicts your second claim (still unsourced *cough*) that only Conservatives are targets.

Liberals are only targets when they are implicating other Liberals.

The default is set to Conservative. Why is this so hard to understand? The civil service is overwhelmingly liberal. Of course there is going to be friction, but as you said, the job of the civil service should transcend party differences. They need to sit down and do their jobs rather then playing gotcha games.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

It's like a perpetual motion machine. I can imagine one in my head, but in the real world it's impossible.

I'm glad to see Harper is willing to restore the balance within the civil service so that we get a few conservatives in there.

Suspicion confirmed.

Give me a sec.

Ok, here's the deal. Harper wanted to set up a means to implement senate elections with Elections Canada, similar to what has already happened. The idea being that when the provinces decide to hold senate elections, the protocols would already be in place.

Harper can't even elect senators without the agreement of the individual provinces, so rather then having 10 different setups, he figured it was better to do it just once.

I'm not sure why you believe he could simply 'impose senate reform'. Without the constitution, all he can do is agree to respect the will of the people, but he is not bound to do so.

You said they have commented against Harper's proposals for Senate reform. This should be an easy link to provide. I'll ask you a second time to please provide one.

I can see what Harper is trying to do and it's a necessary step. Elections Canada should stop stonewalling and do their jobs.

Their job is what parliament has mandated. This does not include preparing for hypothetical senate elections.

Hence my disdain of the whole 'scandal'. I am really getting tired of the hyperbole.

I'm getting tired of the crookedness. It looks particularly bad however when you are the party elected on the back of your oppositions money scandal.

Liberals are only targets when they are implicating other Liberals.

Is this an admission that you can't back up the BS claim from earlier? Liberals can be and are targets of wrongdoing investigations?

The default is set to Conservative. Why is this so hard to understand? The civil service is overwhelmingly liberal. Of course there is going to be friction, but as you said, the job of the civil service should transcend party differences. They need to sit down and do their jobs rather then playing gotcha games.

/tinfoil hat

[Ben Kenobi]

You honestly believe the civil service we have right now is 'impartial'?

I want some of whatever you are smoking.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/13/harper-senators.html

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=456017

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You honestly believe the civil service we have right now is 'impartial'?

Probably not by a Conservative's definition.

I want some of whatever you are smoking.

You can't have it. I paid good money for it.

[Wezil]

By GREG WESTON

The controversy that has engulfed the Conservatives over election financing hanky-panky has been vintage Stephen Harper damage control with gasoline and matches.

Until a few weeks ago, it is likely the vast majority of Canadians had either never heard of the offending "in and out scheme," or perhaps assumed it was something naughty.

Either way, most could not have cared less, and the issue remained all but politically moribund outside the parliamentary beltway.

It could have stayed that way or, better still, been put to rest permanently more than a year ago with no fanfare or political fallout of consequence.

Instead, the Conservatives sued Elections Canada for more than $700,000 the party claims it is owed, effectively turning up the heat to full boil between the government and the federal agency.

The result so far has been perfectly predictable: The prime minister and party that got elected on a promise to raise the ethical bar have once again successfully whacked themselves over the head with it.

Conservatives are crying foul over last week's high-profile RCMP visit-***-raid at the party's headquarters, claiming Elections Canada is intentionally trying to embarrass the Harper administration.

Well, duh. Legal fights in public are rarely flattering to either side, something the Harper strategists should have considered before they unleashed their legal beagles, particularly on a federal agency with public credibility on its side over an issue that is suspect at best.

Even if the courts eventually determine that what the Conservatives did during the last election was not technically within the letter of the law, it is doubtful the scheme would pass the sniff test with most ordinary Canadians.

In the 2006 election, the Elections Act allowed the Conservatives to spend up to $18.2 million on national campaign advertising. Individual candidates had their own unrelated ceilings.

Elections Canada ruled the Tory party tried to circumvent the rules by giving over $1 million to 67 candidate campaigns, and immediately taking it back as expenses for local advertising.

Taxpayers

The candidates then claimed it as election expenses which, had Elections Canada not dug in, would have resulted in their getting an additional $700,000 in rebates from taxpayers.

One failed Conservative candidate in Quebec, a lawyer, was quoted this week saying he refused a request from a senior party organizer to participate in the "in and out" scheme during the 2006 campaign.

"He phoned me up and said, 'I just want to let you know that the party is going to deposit $30,000 in your campaign account in the next day or two and then withdraw it immediately. We just wanted to let you know that so you don't fuss about it. It's just and in and out.'

"I said to him, 'Well, what's that about?'

"He said, 'Don't you worry about it. It's just going to happen and it has nothing to do with you.'"

When Elections Canada initially ruled the whole manoeuvre was out of order, Harper and his party brain trust could have been contrite, admitting what they had done was perhaps an error in judgment, if not in law, and kissed off the $700,000 in candidate rebates.

It's not as though the Conservatives desperately need the money. The party war chest has enough cash in it to fight three elections.

But contrition is not the Harper way.

Instead, the gloves came off and the brawl began amid inane political spinning.

First, the narrative was that Elections Canada was picking on the Conservatives for doing something other parties had been getting away with for years, albeit Harper promised to do better.

Then it was all a Liberal plot. Hell, even the judge who authorized the search warrant on Conservative headquarters was one of those "Liberal appointees" who once even contributed a hundred bucks to the Grits.

A Commons committee that tried to probe the "in and out" affair was thwarted by the Conservatives for months with antics befitting a kindergarten.

Were this an isolated case, it could be dismissed as a strategic blunder.

But it's not. Elections Canada is only one of many independent federal agencies that have stepped into the way of the Harper bullyboys, and got the full brass-knuckle treatment for their efforts.

The former information commissioner, the past ethics commissioner, the fired head of the Nuclear Safety Commission - all have left with bloodied noses from Harper and his political street gang.

Problem is, while the PM and his party may be winning a few rounds, they're not gaining many fans.

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Weston_Greg/2008/04/27/5400306-sun.html