Religion and Guns in small-town America

[DaShi]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
It's NOT surprising they get bitter. I don't understand the turmoil. He shouldn't have apologized, he was right.

That's the problem. Politicians should never tell the truth.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
And that's the point of Frank's book: Economic reversals should create a natural left-leaning (i.e. Democratic) constituency, but don't because economic frustration gets deflected onto some other issues, like illegal immigration or gay rights or whatever, that are only tangentially related (if at all) to the plight of the Kansas farmer or the Pennsylvania steelworker. The GOP is brilliant at encouraging that dynamic, and the Democrats completely suck at countering it.

But I also believe that argument to be completely bull****. It isn't that economic frustrations get deflected onto other issues, but those issues are already there and are important to those voters. The economic frustration is somewhat secondary to a lot of voters. To a lot of people, values tend to carry the day, regardless of economic frustrations.

The national Democratic Party tends not to get it most of the time, but the "conservative" (mostly just in terms of values) Democrats in those areas do understand that people have strong values that the believe in and care for, regardless of regular boom/bust economic conditions (now a second Great Depression may lead to something different, of course).

Now if Obama stuck to economic frustrations lead people to become anti-immigrant and anti-trade, I can see that... because those are directly related, but guns and religion? WTF, Obama?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I would have zero problem with decrying bitterness due to economic frustrations. Unfortunately by including guns and religion in the equation, Obama really leaves himself open to attacks which detract from his message. Gives an opening that the right wingers can drive a truck through.

Its similar to the Wright controversy-the discussion is important to have, but due to clumsiness of delivery, opponents can muddy the water by using his own words against him, very easily.

Dunt tak away r guns, bama

It's his opponents who are the "politics as usual" users. They are the real problem with the country. It really shouldn't be a problem with the exact words that he uses. I think it's even more important that he speaks openly and truthfully actually than it is for him to win. Somethings got to give here. America sucks right now, hard.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Now if Obama stuck to economic frustrations lead people to become anti-immigrant and anti-trade, I can see that... because those are directly related, but guns and religion? WTF, Obama?

Why do you think anti-immigrant and anti-trade sentiment is related to economic frustration and not gun fanaticism and religion? You know I know a lot of poor people who get gun and church nuts.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Now if Obama stuck to economic frustrations lead people to become anti-immigrant and anti-trade, I can see that... because those are directly related, but guns and religion? WTF, Obama?

He doesn't say that people were "lead to become"... he just says they "turn to". That can mean an already present factor, rather than a new one. For instance, a religious person will often turn to their religion, their beliefs, for comfort from just about any hardship. A non religious person may "turn to" religion as well, and in that case "become" would be applicable as well. I don't think your interpretation of "lead to become" holds up in regards to the rest of the speech.

Guns is a less common "comfort", but there are some people who fall into that category too. Often the militia movements gained traction in areas of economic hardship.

In any case, he's listing a bunch of examples of where economic frustrations can boil over to, not saying that there aren't valid issues there or that that is the only source of frustrations. He's also using "or", and twice clarifies only apply to some people, some communities, and not always the ones you'd expect based on demographics, downplaying the race issue (which had been brought up earlier) as somewhat negligible (he cracks a joke about it earlier, after saying that the NYT article on the subject was wrong to claim it is a race issue preventing him from connecting with these communities). He's saying government has failed to address the economic issues, and that the frustrations from that have fallen on deaf ears of politicians making empty promises. His point is that the major obstacle he faces when trying to spread his message is that it's much like previous politician's lines that have gone unfulfilled, and so is rightly greeted with skepticism.

[Kidlicious]

They are "lead to become" though. The Republicans love to spin everything so that people in small towns think that Democrats want to take everyones guns and religion away. That's exactly what Hilary has been doing btw. Well if she does get elected I'll hate her about as much as I do Bush. No good will come from her victory.

I think I was wrong about this not hurting Obama though. The poll numbers don't look good in PA. Clinton 57% Obama 37%

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why do you think anti-immigrant and anti-trade sentiment is related to economic frustration and not gun fanaticism and religion? You know I know a lot of poor people who get gun and church nuts.

Do I really need to explain this to you? Really? How about this... when's the last time the church took someone's job?

He doesn't say that people were "lead to become"... he just says they "turn to". That can mean an already present factor, rather than a new one. For instance, a religious person will often turn to their religion, their beliefs, for comfort from just about any hardship. A non religious person may "turn to" religion as well, and in that case "become" would be applicable as well. I don't think your interpretation of "lead to become" holds up in regards to the rest of the speech.

Well, he actually said "cling to", but as Kid's comment afterwards show, a lot of people are seeing those comments as "lead to become". And, of course, I'm not why turning towards to your religion for comfort would be a bad thing, but the implication is that the reason people "cling to" religion and guns in the heartland is because of economic frustrations... which isn't really true.

[Kidlicious]

dp

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Why do you think anti-immigrant and anti-trade sentiment is related to economic frustration and not gun fanaticism and religion? You know I know a lot of poor people who get gun and church nuts.

Do I really need to explain this to you? Really? How about this... when's the last time the church took someone's job?

What does that have to do with it? We are just talking about whether or not they "cling to" religion because they have economic frustration. I'm not saying religion makes people lose their jobs. Btw, there are a lot of christians who believe the people who don't have jobs are sinners.

I think the issue here is why they don't vote for Obama, because that's what he was talking about. I've already pointed out that a lot of these people still think he's a damn muslim. Now you've go to admit that that type of person is going to be the kind of person who doesn't like people who are different and who tends to cling to christianity.

Now Hillary is really pissing me off here, and a lot of other people btw (getting boos), because she's acting like a republican here and making it seem like democrats are elitists and outsiders, when nothing could be further from the truth. Our candidate just happens to be wealthy. A lot of democrats who aren't wealthy believe the same way.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kidicious
What does that have to do with it? We are just talking about whether or not they "cling to" religion because they have economic frustration. I'm not saying religion makes people lose their jobs. Btw, there are a lot of christians who believe the people who don't have jobs are sinners.

You don't think that it is more reasonable to state that people "cling to" anti-immigrant or anti-trade sentiment if they've lost their jobs? Think for a second here.

And I really don't think you can explain small town America's "cling[ing] to" religion because of economic frustration. It has little to nothing to do with that.

I think the issue here is why they don't vote for Obama, because that's what he was talking about. I've already pointed out that a lot of these people still think he's a damn muslim. Now you've go to admit that that type of person is going to be the kind of person who doesn't like people who are different and who tends to cling to christianity.

I'd actually like to see numbers on how many people "still think he's a damn muslim". You've thrown that out there a bunch of times without support.

And if those are the type of people who "[tend] to cling to christianity", is it because of economic frustrations?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Bob Herbert, an Obama supporter (as you can tell from the linked comments), puts it pretty well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/opinion/15herbert.html?hp

Senator Obama has spent his campaign trying to dodge the race issue, which in America is like trying to dodge the wind. So when he fielded the question in San Francisco, he didn’t say: “A lot of folks are not with me because I’m black — but I’m trying to make my case and bring as many around as I can.”

Instead, he fell back on a tortured response that was demonstrably incorrect. Referring to the long-term economic distress of many working-class voters, Mr. Obama said: “It’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or antitrade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

He danced all around the truth. Unless you’re Fred Astaire, if your dance steps get too intricate you’re bound to make a misstep. This was a big one.

In his San Francisco comments, Senator Obama fouled up when he linked frustration and bitterness over economic hard times with America’s romance with guns and embrace of religion. But, please, let’s get a grip. What we ought to be worked up about is the racism that still prevents some people from giving a candidate a fair chance because of his skin color.

[Imran Siddiqui]

making it seem like democrats are elitists and outsiders

Well, if Democrats don't want to be portrayed that way, they shouldn't ****ing act elitist!

It seems the last person to get this message was Bill Clinton! Hillary is trying, but she's definately not as skilled as Bill was on being a common person.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You don't think that it is more reasonable to state that people "cling to" anti-immigrant or anti-trade sentiment if they've lost their jobs? Think for a second here.

In context, he is describing why he isn't popular with white working class. Keep in mind that what he said wasn't worded well. He's trying to describe why people don't vote for him. I think if he could say it over again it would have to do with Republicans making Democrats look a certain way.

And I really don't think you can explain small town America's "cling[ing] to" religion because of economic frustration. It has little to nothing to do with that.

It has a lot to do with the real issue, which is why they don't vote for Obama.

I'd actually like to see numbers on how many people "still think he's a damn muslim". You've thrown that out there a bunch of times without support.

I live in Oklahoma. I'm telling you what the stupid poor people think. I don't have any numbers. I can tell you though, that it's very common among a certain type of person. I can't tell you if they actually think of him as a muslim or not, but they definitely think of him as different.

And if those are the type of people who "[tend] to cling to christianity", is it because of economic frustrations?

A lot of it is because they are poor. They percieve that other people are better off than them and they resent that. What they don't understand is that a lot of people who are poor believe the same way.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

making it seem like democrats are elitists and outsiders

Well, if Democrats don't want to be portrayed that way, they shouldn't ****ing act elitist!

It seems the last person to get this message was Bill Clinton! Hillary is trying, but she's definately not as skilled as Bill was on being a common person.

It's not elitists! You are just saying that because Obama is educated and better off than them. He doesn't look down on them. He just believes differently. He's just honest enough to shoot it to them straight unlike Clinton acting like she just came from the gun range and calling other people in her party elitists.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kidicious
In context, he is describing why he isn't popular with white working class. Keep in mind that what he said wasn't worded well. He's trying to describe why people don't vote for him. I think if he could say it over again it would have to do with Republicans making Democrats look a certain way.

I don't think he isn't popular with white working class people because they "cling to" religion. I thought Obama was supposed to be a very religious man. So why would that be the matter? Guns, I can understand... Clinton is probably better for gun owners than Obama. Anti-trade sentiment? No candidate (of a major party) better encapsulates that than Obama.

And I don't see how economic frustrations make these people "cling" to religion and guns and that makes them not vote for Obama.

He's going a bridge too far there.

I live in Oklahoma. I'm telling you what the stupid poor people think. I don't have any numbers. I can tell you though, that it's very common among a certain type of person. I can't tell you if they actually think of him as a muslim or not, but they definitely think of him as different.

So... you were making it up when you said they think he's a Muslim? You can say they think of his as different, but you are basically calling them ignorant (Hell, you called the "stupid poor people", and you wonder why Democrats have problems getting votes in certain areas).

A lot of it is because they are poor. They percieve that other people are better off than them and they resent that. What they don't understand is that a lot of people who are poor believe the same way.

Which is why them being mad at free trade deals or illegal immigration makes sense... that's related to economic conditions. I don't think they hate Muslims because they don't have jobs.