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**asleepathewheel** · April 14, 2008, 12:01

Originally posted by Aeson

That is not contrary to what I said, so why did you try to imply I was ignorant?

It was a friggin joke, albeit not a funny one, don't be so sensitive. If I wanted to claim you were ignorant, which I don't, I would have just come out and said it directly.

**Ramo** · April 14, 2008, 12:15

As in late January 2008 on Meet the Press, McCain said:

He just implied that he wouldn't put any political capital into comprehensive immigration reform: "it isn't going to come." Fantastic leadership, there.

**Kidlicious** · April 14, 2008, 12:17

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Kid has a martyr complex, so this is a good fit for him.

People here help each other out more than they do in California. I remember when my car broke down in California and about 1000 people drove by without stopping.

**DanS** · April 14, 2008, 12:26

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I certainly think they've gotten more anti-trade and more nativist, however.

This is a little misleading, even if true. In the 50s through early 70s, they had no occasion to be anti-trade because there was relatively little international trade, and they had no occasion to be anti-immigration because there was relatively little immigration.

Further, don't conflate the anti-trade sentiment in the industrial heartland with the anti-trade sentiment in small-town America. Sometimes they are similar, sometimes they are not.

**Kidlicious** · April 14, 2008, 13:02

Originally posted by Ramo
"it isn't going to come." Fantastic leadership, there.

QFT

**Imran Siddiqui** · April 14, 2008, 13:04

Originally posted by Ramo

As in late January 2008 on Meet the Press, McCain said:

He just implied that he wouldn't put any political capital into comprehensive immigration reform: "it isn't going to come." Fantastic leadership, there.

I would think that realizing the writing on the wall is something a good President should do. What's the point in putting political capital into something that won't happen without concessions elsewhere first? President Clinton learned that lesson the hard way in his first term.

**Ogie Oglethorpe** · April 14, 2008, 13:11

Re: Re: Religion and Guns in small-town America

Originally posted by Oerdin

Dan, you can always be counted on to buy into the manufactured controversies.

Who said manufacturing has left the US? Clinton up by 20 in PA.

**Ramo** · April 14, 2008, 13:12

I definitely don't think it's not going to happen. The idea that there's a massive constituency virulently opposed to comprehensive reform has been one of the more overhyped political stories in recent memory. Nearly every time that the GOP ran on opposition to immigration, it was a big loser (the VA State Senate several months ago and Bill Foster's recent victory come to mind).

What's true is that a candidate is not getting the GOP nomination by being a leader on comprehensive immigration (but it's telling that they're willing to go with a guy who previously advocated that). Hence, McCain's position.

**SlowwHand** · April 14, 2008, 13:12

"Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest."

**Kidlicious** · April 14, 2008, 13:18

Originally posted by SlowwHand
"Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest."

Only in Texas. Calling an undocumented immigrant an illegal alien is more like calling a jaywalker a burglar.

**SlowwHand** · April 14, 2008, 13:19

That doesn't make any sense at all, Kid.

**DinoDoc** · April 14, 2008, 13:21

Geoffrey Garin: Obama's Small-Town Comments Would Damage Him In General Election -- And Super-Dels Should Consider Them
By Greg Sargent - April 12, 2008, 3:10PM
Updated below.

Hillary chief strategist Geoffrey Garin dramatically raised the stakes in the battle over Barack Obama's comments about small-town America, saying in an interview that they would be "damaging" to him in a general election, could set back the Democratic Party's efforts to reach heartland voters, and should be something that super-delegates consider when deciding whom to support.

"These are the kinds of attitudes that have created a gulf between Democrats and lots of small-town and heartland voters that we've been working very, very hard to bridge," Garin told me today in his first public comments about the flap.

"I saw Senator Obama's comments as a step backward to building those kinds of bridges," Garin continued, saying the following of the impact that the comments could have in a general election:

"They will be damaging. And they could be significantly so...I don't think that the kinds of attitudes that Senator Obama expressed are consistent with Democrats doing what we need to do to win a general election."

In the wide-ranging interview, Garin also:

* Suggested that the comments were "completely fair game" for use in an ad, and an "important topic"

* Said that he would "hope" that the Clinton campaign would point to the comments in their efforts to persuade super-delegates to back her over Obama

* Said that Mark Penn felt "embarrassed" and felt like he'd been "taken to the woodshed," and allowed that Penn "did a dumb thing"

* Said that while Hillary's reputation "isn't going to get any worse," Obama's "isn't going to get any better"

* Said that Obama had implied that working-class people are "small-minded"

"Working class people in all parts of America are frustrated, but they are not small-minded in the way that Senator Obama's comments conveyed," Garin said.

Asked what impact the comments could have in a general election, Garin said: "The people who are most likely to be offended by this are also the most likely to be swing voters in general elections."...

"These comments, and the larger issue of the Obama campaign's inability to connect with these working class voters, is not a little thing. It's a big thing. And it's a big thing that is likely to end up making a big difference in November."

Garin Would "Hope" Clinton camp points to comments in discussions with super-delegates

Asked if the comments were something that Clinton campaign officials would point to in making their case to super-delegates, Garin said:

"I don't know, and that's another part of the shop, but I would hope so. It's an important thing for our party to be thinking about...this is a party that...needs to broaden its appeal beyond urban and suburban places and do much better in the exurban and rural parts of America. So this is a bona fide factor to take into account."

When I suggested that Hillary's denunciation of Obama's comments as "elitist" and "out-of-touch" was overstated, and argued that Obama had merely made the "What's the Matter With Kansas" argument in a clumsy way, Garin said: "To say that people cling to their religion out of economic frustration couldn't be more out of touch."

"The answer to `What's the matter with Kansas' is not that there's something the matter with Kansas," Garin argued. "There's something the matter with Democrats who can't make a connection with voters whose economic interests are closely tied to what the Democratic Party stands for."

I asked Garin why we should assume that Hillary would make this connection, when she's been getting branded as elitist by the GOP for 15 years and would face a similar onslaught in a general election. Garin said:

"On this thing Senator Clinton herself gets it. Because on a certain level it's who she is. She is truly a person whose life is rooted in the middle class and in the middle of America. She has, despite an enormous amount of skepticism, connected with these kinds of voters in New York State and developed a real bond with them. She's worked at it."

Use of comments in ad is "completely fair game"

Asked if Obama's comments would pop up in an ad, Garin said it was too soon to tell, but added: "We'll look at how all of this plays out. I completely think it's fair game, and an important topic."

On electability, I asked Garin why we shouldn't be judging it by looking at general election polls showing Obama performing as well or better than Hillary in key states. Garin conceded that it was a "completely fair question." But he reiterated the Clinton campaign's argument that her ability to grow the Democratic turnout in the big states suggested her potential in the general election.

"Whatever we are seeing today," Garin continued, "Hillary Clinton's reputation isn't going to get any worse. And Barack Obama's isn't going to get any better. And I believe that Hillary Clinton's reputation can get a lot better in the months to come."

Penn is "embarrassed" and "did a dumb thing"

Asked whether he was satisfied with Mark Penn's demotion in lieu of his firing, given the problems Penn had created for Garin's candidate, he said:

"If you don't think Mark Penn is embarrassed and feels like he's been taken to the woodshed, you don't know Mark Penn, and you've probably never been inside a woodshed...He did a dumb thing, he knows he did a dumb thing. His role in the campaign has been changed in a very significant way."

Late Update: A quick clarification: It should be noted that Garin made all of the above comments in response to my questions. The interview was arranged before Obama made his small-town remarks. In other words, Garin didn't seek out the interview in order to hit Obama for the comments -- he didn't come out with guns blazing.

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**Kidlicious** · April 14, 2008, 13:26

Originally posted by SlowwHand
That doesn't make any sense at all, Kid.

Think about it. How is immigrating more like being a burglar more than a trespasser or jaywalker? Or do you get the death penalty in Texas for trespassing now?

**SlowwHand** · April 14, 2008, 13:30

You don't get it for being a burglar either, unless the home owner shoots you.

**Imran Siddiqui** · April 14, 2008, 13:30

"The answer to `What's the matter with Kansas' is not that there's something the matter with Kansas," Garin argued. "There's something the matter with Democrats who can't make a connection with voters whose economic interests are closely tied to what the Democratic Party stands for."

That's a brilliant, brilliant answer. And he's right.