Vancouver Trains: Suck or not suck?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'd add Vancouver to the list. It's getting better, but the system here is silly. You can't get to and from the airport or to either university.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'd add Vancouver to the list. It's getting better, but the system here is silly. You can't get to and from the airport or to either university.

Vancouver, outside of the very core (downtown peninsula, south False Creek and maybe Kits), is not a particulary dense urban environment.

[Ben Kenobi]

Vancouver, outside of the very core (downtown peninsula, south False Creek and maybe Kits), is not a particulary dense urban environment.

Well you've got two lines running and neither of them run to the airport or to either university, so it's rather pathetic. The issue isn't the density, but where they chose to run that second line, which is a total white elephant. It manages to run west east, but doesn't really go anywheres.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Well you've got two lines running and neither of them run to the airport or to either university, so it's rather pathetic. The issue isn't the density, but where they chose to run that second line, which is a total white elephant. It manages to run west east, but doesn't really go anywheres.

A) They're in the middle of building a line to the airport.

B) It is an issue of density since density is a major driver of people into transit. If it isn't cheaper, faster and easier to take transit to your destination, then you're far more likely to drive.

[Ben Kenobi]

A) They're in the middle of building a line to the airport.

Finally! Should have been the second line they built.

B) It is an issue of density since density is a major driver of people into transit. If it isn't cheaper, faster and easier to take transit to your destination, then you're far more likely to drive.

Oh, I agree. I like the first line, because it makes sense. The second one is a total loss though. It would work if it went from UBC to Coquitlam. As it is it doesn't go anywhere the current system won't take you. It doesn't go to SFU. It doesn't go to UBC.

That is what I have a problem is the money they spent on that line could have been used on something useful.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Oh, I agree. I like the first line, because it makes sense. The second one is a total loss though. It would work if it went from UBC to Coquitlam. As it is it doesn't go anywhere the current system won't take you. It doesn't go to SFU. It doesn't go to UBC.

That is what I have a problem is the money they spent on that line could have been used on something useful.

Meh, this is a totally different discussion, but the first skytrain line was no more practical than the millenium line. Both were built with the idea of focusing growth on nodes centred around the stations. The first line seems more practical now because there's been more time for the growth to occur. I remember when the first line was built, there was almost nothing but a single mall at Metrotown. The area around Joyce was all single family residential, the whole area around Edmonds was nothing at all, ditto all the areas in Surrey. In time, many of the areas around the millenium stations are supposed to be developed the same way.

[Ben Kenobi]

Meh, this is a totally different discussion, but the first skytrain line was no more practical than the millenium line.

It runs right through New West/Surrey/Burnaby all the way right down town.

Makes sense for so many office workers, and I'm not considering Joyce, etc.

But the Millennium line? It doesn't go anywhere! Sure, it's great for North Burnaby, but that's it. It's useless, and in 10 years, it will be superseded by this Richmond line.

The only way to make the Millennium line useful is to have an extension across the Ironworkers to North Van, an extension to Coquitlam, an extension to SFU and UBC.

It will take enormous stress off the Broadway corridor.

Even if you get the effects of increased growth, it doesn't take any of the load off the streets.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


It runs right through New West/Surrey/Burnaby all the way right down town.

Makes sense for so many office workers, and I'm not considering Joyce, etc.

Yes, but you're ignoring the history of it again. When it was built, it ran through very low density areas and the stations were basically park-and-rides. In terms of the number of people who lived practically close to it to use it to go downtown, it wasn't much better than the millenium line is now.

But the Millennium line? It doesn't go anywhere! Sure, it's great for North Burnaby, but that's it. It's useless, and in 10 years, it will be superseded by this Richmond line.

And east Vancouver, and south Coquitlam. Again, not much there now, but mainly a park-and-ride situation. That too will change. And it doesn't run into downtown because it meets up with the old line at Commercial, so you go into downtown from there.

What do you mean by superseded by the Richmond line? That more people will ride the Richmond line? That's a distinct possiblity for a while at least, but I don't think you know how hard it was to get the green light for this line. The Olympics is the only thing that tipped the scales, and even then it was a fight.

The only way to make the Millennium line useful is to have an extension across the Ironworkers to North Van, an extension to Coquitlam, an extension to SFU and UBC.

It will take enormous stress off the Broadway corridor.

Even if you get the effects of increased growth, it doesn't take any of the load off the streets.

Er, I don't think you understand this or the city very well. There's no point going into North Van via the Second Narrows since that's the least populated area of North Van, and not really suitable for major development. The density on the North Shore is in the Lonsdale corridor. It already extends into southern Coquitlam, and the Westcoast Express serves northern Coquitlam (there is another line planned to go into Coquitlam, BTW). An extension to UBC might make sense (I believe they looked into it, but it would have to be almost entirely underground and thus quite expensive), but any line to SFU is totally useless - way, way too small and there's almost literally nothing between where it runs now and SFU, so you wouldn't be serving anything else but the university.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, but you're ignoring the history of it again. When it was built, it ran through very low density areas and the stations were basically park-and-rides.

Even in downtown and New Westminster? Yes, some were like that, and some of them even now (Edmunds) are pretty sparsely developed.

However, the concept was sound. The idea was to get people from Surry all the way into downtown. It's the good old hub and spoke model. The hub is the downtown core, while the spoke is the expo line.

In terms of the number of people who lived practically close to it to use it to go downtown, it wasn't much better than the millenium line is now.

There were also fewer people overall. Vancouver has had tremendous growth in the last 20 years.

And east Vancouver, and south Coquitlam. Again, not much there now, but mainly a park-and-ride situation. That too will change. And it doesn't run into downtown because it meets up with the old line at Commercial, so you go into downtown from there.

As opposed to people riding the original line downtown? the 'Millennium line' is mostly a useless loop, unless the extensions are built. If they build it into Coquitlam and North Vancouver, then it would have a service. The Millennium line is about as useful as an expo line from Joyce to downtown.

What do you mean by superseded by the Richmond line? That more people will ride the Richmond line?

I think ridership will be huge if they go down the Cambie corridor. The millennium line might be useful if they run it from Cambie to Commercial, but who knows if that will ever happen?

I've travelled down all of these lines, I used to live in East Van, I've lived in Point Gray and in Richmond, but this Cambie line is going to boom everything along the corridor with the airport.

When I first came, your only options were taxis (50+ dollars!), or TWO busses out to the airport. This line has been needed for 20 years.

Er, I don't think you understand this or the city very well. There's no point going into North Van via the Second Narrows since that's the least populated area of North Van, and not really suitable for major development.

I know where the development is in North Vancouver, but I don't see a sky train ever running across Lions Gate. It could also replace the sea bus which is a huge joke.

The density on the North Shore is in the Lonsdale corridor. It already extends into southern Coquitlam, and the Westcoast Express serves northern Coquitlam (there is another line planned to go into Coquitlam, BTW).

Yes, I know that, which is why it needs to be completed. I'm not saying the line itself doesn't have potential, it's a good idea, it's just as it is the line just sits there. If it runs out to Coquitlam it's the same hub and spoke model.

As for the West coast express, there are two trains, and it goes all the way down the valley to Mission. It's a different model.

An extension to UBC might make sense (I believe they looked into it, but it would have to be almost entirely underground and thus quite expensive),

Right now they are parcelling out a full lane for busses on Broadway which means massive west to east congestion. The density is there in that part of the city, just the expense will be high. The line would pay for itself easily, the B-lines showed the ridership potential for the route.

but any line to SFU is totally useless - way, way too small and there's almost literally nothing between where it runs now and SFU, so you wouldn't be serving anything else but the university.

Again, ridership would be large for a spur off from the millennium line, replacing the shuttle bus they have going there. That would make the route of the Millennium line more sensible.

As it is the Cambie line will easily outstrip ridership on the Millennium line because it works again on the successful hub and spoke model rather then the train to nowhere.

[Ben Kenobi]

BLUE = EXPO LINE

RED = CAMBIE LINE

PURPLE = LINE TO NOWHERE (ie MILLENNIUM LINE)

ORANGE = NECESSARY EXTENSIONS TO THE MILLENNIUM LINE

Now, the folks on poly can see why the Millennium line sucks so much compared with the other two.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sorry. Just was a good discussion.

Could Ming split this off so that Pekka keeps his thread?

[snoopy369]

Back in my day people just CREATED new threads ... none of this moderator work stuff

But, i'm waiting for a data run, so i guess i'll do it

[Asher]

This thread makes no sense. Fire snoopy.

[snoopy369]

I just did what Ben asked... it's up to him to make sense or not

[Aeson]

invalid poll!