Apple tring to push Safari onto Windows users

[Wiglaf]

OS and browser bundling makes sense. It is important for the programs to have access to a rendering engine built into the OS. On OS X, this is Webkit (which is used by Safari). In Windows, this is Trident (which is used by IE). In Linux, this is either Gecko or Webkit/KHTML depending on the environment.

This is quite a tangent. There is of course a reason to have a browser with the OS, but nothing stopping the inclusion of other browsers as well.

There is absolutely no technical nor use-case reason for iTunes to be forcing Safari out as an "update" to users who have never used it before. The entire purpose of this is a desperate attempt at stealing userbase since no one is using Safari on Windows.

You seem to be confusing iTunes with Apple Software Update. The updater says 'Searching for new software' when it starts up, produces Safari 3.1, and explains that it is a fast web browser. Because the download is not automatic there is no 'forcing it' here.

The wording of this being an "upgrade" to someone who has never installed it is confusing to most users. Most users blindly hit "yes" to any "update" prompts, which is precisely what Apple is counting on here. If people actually wanted to install Safari, they could get it from the site. The whole purpose behind this move is to trick people into using it.

The whole reason IE is bundled with XP is to convince millions of people that IE is basically the only way to browse the web. Apple's stepping up to and probably a little over the line here, but it is insane to say microsoft doesn't do far worse with each copy of XP it distributes.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
This is quite a tangent. There is of course a reason to have a browser with the OS, but nothing stopping the inclusion of other browsers as well.

This is the tangent. I don't care if Apple reaches a deal with MS or Linux operators to include Safari by default. That's not what is happening here.

You seem to be confusing iTunes with Apple Software Update. The updater says 'Searching for new software' when it starts up, produces Safari 3.1, and explains that it is a fast web browser. Because the download is not automatic there is no 'forcing it' here.

The only way to get Apple Software Update on Windows is to download the iTunes/Quicktime bundle. This is why they are being tied together, it is not a matter of confusion. On Windows, ASU is basically the updater tool for iTunes from the perspective of users -- after all, that's the only Apple software they've installed!

The "forcing" is by making it default to install at a prompt about software updates. This is not an update, it should NOT be defaulted to Yes or even grouped in the same category as iTunes updates. It's a "new software install" prompt, not a "software update".

but it is insane to say microsoft doesn't do far worse with each copy of XP it distributes.

No, it's not, for reasons I have outlined already (technical and otherwise) that you have ignored because you can't compute why it's relevant.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Asher
The CEO of Mozilla steps in:

So, basically, people are upset over a checkbox already being checked?

Kinda sleazy, but anyone who doesn't actually read what updates they are getting, and confirm they want said update, probably don't care that they suddenly have a new web browser they will never use.

ACK!

[Wiglaf]

No, it's not, for reasons I have outlined already (technical and otherwise) that you have ignored because you can't compute why it's relevant.

You started a spiel about how operating systems need rendering systems built into the OS, which has absolutely nothing to do with justifying forcing one and only one browser in every copy of your OS. I'm not sure what you call that kind of argument, strawman, beating off around the bush, whatever, but it was bizarre.

The "forcing" is by making it default to install at a prompt about software updates. This is not an update, it should NOT be defaulted to Yes or even grouped in the same category as iTunes updates. It's a "new software install" prompt, not a "software update".

Your position is that users are so stupid, they will not only blindly download what the program calls 'new software' -- remember it says 'searching for new software' and ignore the description, but they will also continue using it without knowing any better? Then how can you possibly argue preinstalling IE in any way preserves choice in the browser market?

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by Tuberski


So, basically, people are upset over a checkbox already being checked?

Kinda sleazy, but anyone who doesn't actually read what updates they are getting, and confirm they want said update, probably don't care that they suddenly have a new web browser they will never use.

ACK!

Tuberski

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
You started a spiel about how operating systems need rendering systems built into the OS, which has absolutely nothing to do with justifying forcing one and only one browser in every copy of your OS. I'm not sure what you call that kind of argument, strawman, beating off around the bush, whatever, but it was bizarre.

I am not aware of anyone forcing one and only one browser on an OS.

I'm not sure what you call that kind of argument, strawman, beating off around the bush, whatever, but it was bizarre.

Why do you model yourself after Agathon in debates, BTW?

Your position is that users are so stupid

A fair assumption, especially users of iTunes.

Then how can you possibly argue preinstalling IE in any way preserves choice in the browser market?

Wasn't sure anyone was arguing this, but by virtue of the fact that Firefox's usage continues to skyrocket at the expense of IE -- and the fact that the vast majority of people acquire FF by using IE to download it -- I'd say you're wrong here.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tuberski
So, basically, people are upset over a checkbox already being checked?

A combination of it being defaulted to download when it essentially works as a random popup on your computer when you're usually busy doing something (so most users click click click to get it out of the way and back to their work). The other major problem is it's positioned as an update to software the users already have. It's trying to trick them into downloading it by either confusion or by virtue of the fact that most users just want to get back to their work and not read Apple's generally useless comments in the description (Most are 'Fixes bugs').

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Asher

A combination of it being defaulted to download when it essentially works as a random popup on your computer when you're usually busy doing something (so most users click click click to get it out of the way and back to their work). The other major problem is it's positioned as an update to software the users already have. It's trying to trick them into downloading it by either confusion or by virtue of the fact that most users just want to get back to their work and not read Apple's generally useless comments in the description (Most are 'Fixes bugs').

How does this hurt the user?

It loads a fairly small program, that, if not run, doesn't do anything.

If you are too busy to read what you are downloading, you shouldn't be downloading updates.

Whatever happened to "buyer beware"?

ACK!

[Wiglaf]

I am not aware of anyone forcing one and only one browser on an OS.

And I'm not aware of Apple forcing Safari on anyone.

Wasn't sure anyone was arguing this, but by virtue of the fact that Firefox's usage continues to skyrocket at the expense of IE -- and the fact that the vast majority of people acquire FF by using IE to download it -- I'd say you're wrong here.

Firefox is clearly superior but commands only a fraction of the marketshare.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tuberski
How does this hurt the user?

It's not a small download (something absurd like 22MB), it adds icons everywhere without an option not to do that, and in general it pisses users off. Thus the uproar.

Whatever happened to "buyer beware"?

ACK!

They're not buying anything. They're not doing anything. This prompt comes out of the blue while the users are using the computer telling them there are "updates" available.

It is unreasonable, and extraordinarily stupid, to assume users read every detail presented on their screen when they are busy trying to do something else. As several people in this thread have illustrated, it's extremely common. And that's precisely what Apple is counting on to get the Safari userbase increased.

It's sleazy, it's ethically questionable, and it's 100% typical Apple. You can say what you want about "buyer beware", but I assume you think that there's nothing wrong with phishing then either. Personally, I'm never a victim of it because I know to read carefully and use features to determine if it's legit, but since many (or most) users can't/won't do that, they're SOL? Nice, and quite classy. You must be Republican.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
And I'm not aware of Apple forcing Safari on anyone.

You're either channeling Agathon's stupidity in not comprehending, or you're being obtuse.

I've already said this many times. You're clearly not aware of the concept of social engineering and how you can design dialogs in such a way to make users do things they probably don't want to do. It's not a "forced" bundling in layman's terms, but it relies on fundamental dishonesty and trickery to get the job done. Both are equally despicable.

Firefox is clearly superior but commands only a fraction of the marketshare.

It went from 0% to 17% (300 million downloads) in only a few years, and is still on the rise. Obviously, people have choice. Choice that is -- amazingly enough -- enabled by having a default OS browser that is used to acquire others.

[Wiglaf]

I've already said this many times. You're clearly not aware of the concept of social engineering and how you can design dialogs in such a way to make users do things they probably don't want to do. It's not a "forced" bundling in layman's terms, but it relies on fundamental dishonesty and trickery to get the job done. Both are equally despicable.

Wow. There's a choice offered. A description offered. A EULA that must be agreed to. A pop up saying 'Searching for new software.' If, after all these things, you install anyway, you'll notice that you've installed a program, not an update, and can easily delete it or ignore it.

On the other hand, IE is not offered as a choice but as the only operating system on Windows. Unless someone tells them better, this is the only way for them to access the internet, a problem iTunes users clearly won't have when they see this update. Since presumably they already have a browser.

It went from 0% to 17% (300 million downloads) in only a few years, and is still on the rise. Obviously, people have choice. Choice that is -- amazingly enough -- enabled by having a default OS browser that is used to acquire others.

OH YES 17%. I have a feeling that 17% of computer users are nerds who scour the web for the best software, but most aren't. That is why IE still commands almost 80% of the ****ing marketshare, check your facts at the door please.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Wow. There's a choice offered. A description offered. A EULA that must be agreed to. A pop up saying 'Searching for new software.' If, after all these things, you install anyway, you'll notice that you've installed a program, not an update, and can easily delete it or ignore it.

Wiglaf. The application is called "Apple Software Update".
The description is "Select the items you want to update, then click Install."

This is a NEW SOFTWARE PROGRAM that is randomly popping up on users machines, positioned explicitly as an update. Period.

OH YES 17%. I have a feeling that 17% of computer users are nerds who scour the web for the best software, but most aren't. That is why IE still commands almost 80% of the ****ing marketshare, check your facts at the door please.

IE is closer to 75% now. Not too long ago it was 95%.

Clearly, there is choice and clearly, users are making it.

You lose, Wiggy, just like Al Gore. You are Al to Agathon's Tipper.

[Wiglaf]

Wiglaf. The application is called "Apple Software Update".
The description is "Select the items you want to update, then click Install."

This is a NEW SOFTWARE PROGRAM that is randomly popping up on users machines, positioned explicitly as an update. Period.

IT SAYS IT IS SEARCHING FOR NEW SOFTWARE. I agree the name is misleading but seriously this is so minor it's silly to ***** about it. If anything it punishes retards which is what our society should be doing anyway. Should Apple teach people to feed themselves too?

IE is closer to 75% now. Not too long ago it was 95%.

Clearly, there is choice and clearly, users are making it.

Yes, those are the nerds making the switch. Now it's going to even out for Firefox at around 20%.

You lose, Wiggy, just like Al Gore. You are Al to Agathon's Tipper

YOU ARE PROOF THE DEVIL USES WINDOWS AND THAT IS THERE FACT. I am knee deep in my own **** now trying to argue with you and frankly you like John Mackin Roe have me going in circles, chasing the tennis ball but never scoring a point in the process. When will you learn? It is useless unless you answer logically, rather than for the sake of hitting the ball around, eventually you will tire out and collapse.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
IT SAYS IT IS SEARCHING FOR NEW SOFTWARE.

As in, updates.

YOU ARE PROOF THE DEVIL USES WINDOWS AND THAT IS THERE FACT. I am knee deep in my own **** now trying to argue with you and frankly you like John Mackin Roe have me going in circles, chasing the tennis ball but never scoring a point in the process. When will you learn? It is useless unless you answer logically, rather than for the sake of hitting the ball around, eventually you will tire out and collapse.

You can take your anti-Bush rhetoric elsewhere, Mr. Gore.