Tibetan monasteries 'surrounded by soldiers'

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Kidicious


It almost appeared that you had an unbiased opinion there for a moment.

I've given up on theories of the world. They're always too simplified to be useful for things like this.

But some things can be just right or wrong. And starving non-violent and long-dispossessed monks falls firmly on the "wrong" side of my moral ledger.

And a state that does this consistently, with a number of powerless peoples, often with its own people, and which will do absolutely anything in its power to stop its people from questioning its power or thinking freely for themselves deserves the judgement I gave it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

**** the Chinese state!

[Heraclitus]

**** the Chinese state!

Aneeshm is right, It does feel better!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by aneeshm
But some things can be just right or wrong. And starving non-violent and long-dispossessed monks falls firmly on the "wrong" side of my moral ledger.

The Chinese are starving them?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Were they parasites? During the Dark Ages, many could have accused them of being such. Maybe many were. But in the final analysis, did they and their order contribute more than they took? I doubt anyone would reply with anything but a resounding affirmative.

By keeping society in the Dark Ages? Hardly.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by aneeshm




Very true.

Even though I am no fan of Christianity and its behaviour throughout history, I can still give credit where it is due. IIRC, it was the Benedictine monks who were responsible for many advancements in agriculture during the Middle Ages, and they also, cloistered away in their little monasteries, preserved the bulk of the original Greek and Roman corpus of knowledge which would form the kernel of the Renaissance and deliver Europe from the Dark Ages.

Were they parasites? During the Dark Ages, many could have accused them of being such. Maybe many were. But in the final analysis, did they and their order contribute more than they took? I doubt anyone would reply with anything but a resounding affirmative.

Well, these things are difficult to judge. Orthodox communism simply takes his own stand on religion as absolute truth and then of course they're all parasites and evil, since religion in general is seen as bad.

But it's a rather silly approach, because - aside from the things which these religious guys like monks etc. practically achieved or preserved - it completely ignores the historical context where you have societies that were overwhelmingly religious and where most people wanted it that way for quite a long time. Even the "heretics" weren't advocating atheism but another kind of religion. So calling someone an oppressor when even most of the "oppressed" ones wanted it that way is rather questionable.

I today wouldn't want to have the RCC having the same influence as it had in the middle ages, but it's absurd to apply my modern standards when judging medieval times. It's as dumb as accusing ancient Romans of general stupidity because they had no DVD players.

In the same way it's the question how Tibetans themselves see their religion and the guys involved in it.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia


Fun fact: The Mongolians and the Koreans appear to be fairly close, ethnically. Both of them have a little genetic quirk where the babies often are born with a blue or green spot on the skin near the bottom or lower back. Most Han Chinese babies do not display this, but the few that do are known as having "Mongol spots".

My housemate HMB is Chinese but was born with a Mongol spot. Most of the time they fade when the child is about three or four, but HMB's ass is still blue, 27 years later ^_^

Thanks for the info Allie, I actually had a blue ass too until I was 4 or 5. Glad to know that I carry Asian/Mongolian blood. You have just solved a mystery about me.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by BeBro
But it's a rather silly approach, because - aside from the things which these religious guys like monks etc. practically achieved or preserved - it completely ignores the historical context where you have societies that were overwhelmingly religious and where most people wanted it that way for quite a long time. Even the "heretics" weren't advocating atheism but another kind of religion. So calling someone an oppressor when even most of the "oppressed" ones wanted it that way is rather questionable.

The purpose of religion is to make people want what you want.

[BeBMan]

Well, some people say communism has a lot in common with religion

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Kidicious

By keeping society in the Dark Ages? Hardly.

How on Earth could an isolated little order of monks have done that?

The Roman empire was not destroyed by Christianity, it was destroyed by the internal decay that corruption and decadence brought about by a lack of accountability and checks and balances on the people with power. Plus, of course, the barbarian sackings. I would argue that the reason the RCC was so successful after the fall was because it was the only remnant of the power of the Imperium, and the inheritor of its legitimacy, because it could act to focus whatever little remained and co-ordinate it, direct it. Almost any order is better than chaos.

They had their flaws - and monstrous flaws they were - but the preservative work they did during the periodic interregnums of total chaos that Europe underwent throughout the dark ages was absolutely invaluable in preserving European and Western civilisation as we know it. The Renaissance was made possible only because the tradition of Classical education had the patronage of the elite and the Church. When the elite was weakened or destroyed outright, or fell into decadence, as happened often enough in the Dark Ages, it was solely through Church patronage that a lot of the Classical world survived. Don't knock their contributions.

The Church, too, underwent the same fate later. Power and a lack of accountability does that to everybody. It's what happened to the Romans, the Church, the Brahminical tradition in India, and too many other otherwise stabilising and consolidating traditions to name, and it happens to any state or system without an in-built balance of checks on the power of each node.






But I fear we stray far too off-topic. The point remains that whatever the Tibetan monks may have done in some past, that is so long ago, and so many people ago, that it makes really no sense to bring it up when discussing an atrocity being committed against them. Specially when considering that they have done nothing violent whatsoever.

Forget all ideology for a moment, Kid. It doesn't help in understanding, it's just a mental crutch. Doesn't it strike you that what is being done right now is just wrong?

[Colon™]

The Romans had no DVD players.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by BeBro

Well, these things are difficult to judge. Orthodox communism simply takes his own stand on religion as absolute truth and then of course they're all parasites and evil, since religion in general is seen as bad.

But it's a rather silly approach, because - aside from the things which these religious guys like monks etc. practically achieved or preserved - it completely ignores the historical context where you have societies that were overwhelmingly religious and where most people wanted it that way for quite a long time. Even the "heretics" weren't advocating atheism but another kind of religion. So calling someone an oppressor when even most of the "oppressed" ones wanted it that way is rather questionable.

Well said. But I would go one step further.

The behaviour of the RCC during the time they had power suggests to us that we wouldn't want them to get that power back. Lesson learnt.

But if we consider the influence of the RCC on our lives, and judge it solely by that criterion, and compare it with what had happened had it not existed, ceteris paribus, then that would be a modern judgement of it. And even by that standard, it justifies its existence, because it did more good than harm. That was an important part of my point.

Originally posted by BeBro

I today wouldn't want to have the RCC having the same influence as it had in the middle ages, but it's absurd to apply my modern standards when judging medieval times. It's as dumb as accusing ancient Romans of general stupidity because they had no DVD players.

Originally posted by BeBro

In the same way it's the question how Tibetans themselves see their religion and the guys involved in it.

In addition to whatever Blake may have to say about this, I would like to add that I also have some sense of how Buddhist monks and monasteries are viewed by the culture which produced them. It's mostly based on their actions. If their monks and others are actually moral ideals, or try to live up to them, then they are viewed with favour. We do not tolerate hypocrisy for long.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by BeBro
Well, some people say communism has a lot in common with religion

Politics has a lot in common with religion. That's really my point.

[DaShi]

Tibetan protestors made their appearance during the torch-lighting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/world/25greece.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

March 25, 2008
Protests Disrupt Olympic Ceremony
By ANTHEE CARASSAVA
OLYMPIA, Greece — Demonstrators angered by China’s crackdown in Tibet upstaged an Olympic flame-lighting ceremony here on Monday, unfurling a banner and calling for a boycott of the Summer Games in Beijing before they were arrested by the police.

The protest occurred as Liu Qi, president of the Beijing Organizing Committee, was addressing thousands of spectators, dignitaries and Olympic officials, minutes into a flame-lighting ceremony guarded by 1,000 police officers and commandos concealed in laurel groves.

The brief disruption was broadcast live by Greek national television, but China state television cut away to a prerecorded scene, blocking millions of Chinese views from watching the tumultuous start to the Games in their nation.

Authorities released no immediate details of the incident but the Athens chapter of Reporters Without Borders, the Paris-based media rights group, said three of its members had staged the protest.

The three remained detained at a local police station and faced possible criminal charges for evading security, breaking into the ceremony’s ancient grounds and flashing a black banner depicting the Games’ trademark Olympic rings as handcuffs.

“We cannot let the Chinese government seize the Olympic flame, a symbol of peace, without denouncing the dramatic situation of human rights in the country,” the group said.

Moments after the incident, a Tibetan woman doused herself in red paint and lay in the road in front of a torch runner while police officers arrested two other Tibetan protesters planning a peaceful demonstration about a mile from the ancient sanctuary at the birthplace of the Olympics Games.

“They were stalking me from the moment I touched down to Greece,” said one of those protesters, Tenzin Dorjee, a Tibetan-American activist who arrived Saturday to help orchestrate the peaceful demonstrations.

“All we wanted to do was break into the torch relay and shout that this is a torch of shame as the Chinese government continues to kill hundreds of our people,” he said in a telephone interview from the police precinct in Ancient Olympia.

Mr. Dorjee said about 20 undercover police dragged him away from the central square in Ancient Olympia, detaining him with an accompanying photographer.

“Neither of us were injured,” he said. “But I don’t know how long we’ll be in here,” he said as the police cut off the telephone connection.

Mr. Dorjee

was arrested last April in Tibet for protesting China’s trial ascent of Mount Everest with the Olympic torch.

China’s leadership has faced a public relations disaster since a series of demonstrations turned violent in Lhasa, Tibet’s capital, on March 10, the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising against Chinese rule.

Officials in Beijing have said that 22 people have died in the clashes, while Tibet’s exile movement said Monday that at least 130 Tibetans had been killed. The claims are impossible to corroborate because Chinese authorities have restricted access to Tibet and other areas of China with Tibetan populations.

Earlier on Monday, Mr. Dorjee confronted the head of the International Olympic Committee at his hotel lobby, demanding that Tibet be removed from the Olympic torch relay and that dignitaries stage a boycott of the opening ceremony of the Games on Aug. 8.

The idea, suggested last week by the Paris-based Reporters Without Borders, touched off a firestorm when Bernard Kouchner, France’s foreign minister, said the 27-member European Union was “considering” such a boycott.

He quickly back-pedaled from his statement, telling French media that it was “unrealistic.”

The Games, expected to attract 500,000 tourists and four billion television viewers, are being framed by many China observers as the country’s arrival on the world stage.

On Monday, Jacques Rogge, the president of the International Olympic Committee,, told The Associated Press that he was engaged in a “silent diplomacy” with Beijing on Tibet and other issues but saw no credible momentum for a boycott.

The ceremony here marked the official countdown to the Games as Maria Nafpliotou, a raven-haired Greek actress playing an ancient priestess, ignited the Olympic flame by the suns’ rays in a burnished-steel mirror mounted in the ruins of a sanctuary where Greeks prayed during the ancient Games in 776 B.C.

From Olympia, the flame — an iconic symbol of the Games — will be carried through Greece for a week before taking a seat on a Chinese flight to Beijing, where it will take off for the longest and most ambitious relay ever planned: 130-day, 85,000-mile route that will cross five continents and climb to the summit of Mount Everest before arriving at the National Stadium in Beijing for the opening ceremony.

I guess the Olympic games, which many Chinese have used to justify China's actions, has become political now.

[Winston]

There is still time to avoid a repetition of the 1936 disgrace..

[DaShi]

Nazi Supermen are our superiors!