Parents Say Students Forced To Learn Spanish

[Blake]

I'm not really saying that schools actually condition people to fear failure... although they do.

But I definitely AM saying, that it would be a perfect time in someones life to condition them to NOT fear failure. It would be a good time to take some hard knocks and stuff.

School is a very bad thing for people who are skilled at school. Because they can cruise right through school, through high school, into university, then WHAM, run into failure for the first time. And from that; their life can derail, because they don't know how to cope with that failure and they no longer have a safety net!!
Or maybe it even takes until career, to run into serious failure, even less of a safety net!!

The sooner people learn to fail gracefully, the better. Young people bounce back more easily than older people, kids and teens are very adaptable like that, it would be a good time to REALLY challenge them.

[Cyclotron]

Blake is absolutely correct, in every way it is possible to be correct. As a child, I had debilitating, crushing case of perfectionism. What was prescribed for me was very simple - my parents were told to point out to me whenever they made mistakes. It worked very well.

Learning that mistakes are human and failure can be dealt with is supremely important. Schools need to challenge students, and real challenges have real possibilities of failure.

Short version: Go Blake go

[OzzyKP]

That is a failure too of how we raise children. Parents try build themselves up to be perfect godlike beings. Obviously they aren't, but generally people are too prideful to admit failure or difficulty in front of their kids. If parents are having money issues or any other kind of difficulty, the impulse is to just shelter the kids and shield them from that reality.

That does them a disservice I feel.

Not just because of all the reasons you pointed out Cyclotron (with are on the money) but because it robs kids of a very valuable learning experience. Adolescence is supposed to be a time of learning how to live as an adult, and that becomes more challenging when the adult world - both its good points and bad points - are hidden from them.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Blake
School is a very bad thing for people who are skilled at school. Because they can cruise right through school, through high school, into university, then WHAM, run into failure for the first time. And from that; their life can derail, because they don't know how to cope with that failure and they no longer have a safety net!!
Or maybe it even takes until career, to run into serious failure, even less of a safety net!!

I can speak from experience on this as well.

I never particularly liked school, but it was very easy for me. Once I stamped out a bit of my independence and learned to play the game at least. I never had to work hard. I just kinda breezed through.

Now I'm out in the real world trying to nearly single-handedly lead an organization and it is no longer easy. I don't have a worksheet to fill out every day. I don't have regularly scheduled tests to take. What happens or doesn't happen depends on my own work, time table and initiative. School gave me zero preparation for this, and I'm finding it very difficult to adapt.

Maybe I'm just dumb and a better person would overcome things easier. But I think school had a lot to do with it.

Blake, have you ever read How Children Fail by John Holt? (or any of his other books?) Or have you read anything by John Taylor Gatto? If not, I HIGHLY recommend both authors.

I highly recommend both books to everyone else here too. Both are educators (Gatto was New York state teacher of the year) who have called for drastic reform of the school system.

If people want a better articulated vision of what is wrong with schools and how an improved system should look, check them out.

[Krill]

[q=Blake]I personally try to work those kind of hours ON AVERAGE. The typical "8/5/50" (8 hours/day, 5 days/week, 50 weeks/year) results in 2000 hours at work a year, the ideal is "4/4/40", resulting in 640 hours at work a year. Although I can't manage 4/4/40 I do aim for around 700-1000 hours work a year, it's quite enough.[/q]

Sorry dude, but I like working long 12 hour days 3-4 days a week, both for the moeny and for something to do.

[Cyclotron]

If people want a better articulated vision of what is wrong with schools and how an improved system should look, check them out.

So are you going to do a bit of articulation for us? This is all well and good in theory, but this has been the model of western education since the Industrial Revolution.

Additionally, I'm not as soured on standard education as you seem to be. There were certainly things in my pre-college education that I ended up not needing. I was fortunate enough to go to a high school with an excellent elective structure, which allowed a fair amount of customization. Many of the required courses I took before college, however, were valuable.

I also feel many of the problems you describe - like the perfectionism issue I described - are faults of parenting, and not necessarily the school system. Teachers can't engage kids on their own.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Additionally, I'm not as soured on standard education as you seem to be. There were certainly things in my pre-college education that I ended up not needing. I was fortunate enough to go to a high school with an excellent elective structure, which allowed a fair amount of customization. Many of the required courses I took before college, however, were valuable.

I'll go you one better: as an honor student at my public high school, I had almost no control whatsoever over which courses I took. In the end, though, they were exactly what I needed, either because the content has stayed with me over the years (as in English, History, Geometry and Russian) or because, even when I didn't care at all about the content (Trig, Calculus) they provided excellent training in certain modes of thinking. It was all worthwhile, even if I had no choice in any of it.

[Cyclotron]

That's an important point - it's not just about learning the facts, but modes and methods of thinking and problem solving as well.

Not everybody needs to know chemistry to have a good life or contribute to society. Most people probably don't. If we had a population that understood what it means to be scientific and had a basic grasp of the scientific method, however, our country would be much better off (with regards to the intelligent design "debate"), and I submit that the best way to do that is with science instruction.

We're not just educating vocational units, but participants in a democratic society, and a certain broad knowledge base is required so that society functions best. There are considerable benefits provided by compulsory general education to both individuals and society as a whole.

I'm all for electives, but even I don't think a student should be allowed to take no science, or no history, or no math. Even if individual facts and formulas are lost later, which they often are, there are more basic fruits of such education that are ingrained by the process of instruction.

[Imran Siddiqui]

If we had a population that understood what it means to be scientific and had a basic grasp of the scientific method, however, our country would be much better off (with regards to the intelligent design "debate"),

Oh, definately. This is why I think everyone should take biology. Maybe that'll help defeat the "intelligent design" types of thinking. With a basic science background perhaps they can call bull**** when people try to foist such things.

Basic math and literacy are, of course, things that should be required. And I think we would definately have a better society if we had basic science, basic history, basic civics taught in our schools... even if the kids didn't necessarily want to be in those classes. Some of it may sink in.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Blake
People make a much too big deal over school.

A child might think, that if they fail a test, it's the end of the world! That is how fear can work in a child's mind. It can work the same way in a parents mind.

The problem? It simply isn't true. There's no danger, there's no need for fear.

I have no problem saying, that every single moment I spent in education past age 13 (with the exception perhaps of school camps and lunch time), was pretty much wasted, not benefiting me in my career or life.

That means; all the success and failure, didn't matter. There was never any danger.

But it took me a long time to "unlearn" that fear of failure. There, was the real danger.

At least you finished school and you didn't end up a waste case like a lot of them. So it did benefit you. If you wouldn't have learned to persevere then school would have failed you.

You also learned that failing a test isn't the end of the world right? You learned a lot my friend.

My point is that school is failing a lot of kids in that they end up losers, dead, in prison or on welfare. You might be talking about something else.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Blake is absolutely correct, in every way it is possible to be correct. As a child, I had debilitating, crushing case of perfectionism. What was prescribed for me was very simple - my parents were told to point out to me whenever they made mistakes. It worked very well.

Learning that mistakes are human and failure can be dealt with is supremely important. Schools need to challenge students, and real challenges have real possibilities of failure.

Short version: Go Blake go

Unfortunately, in many cases when you fail high school you fail real life, and tragically.

[Arrian]

That's how fear works. Why does it work that way? I don't know. Perhaps because people are insane

It doesn't seem insane to me. It's quite rational, really. If you fall off the board 2ft to the ground, you're ok. If you fall 20 stories, you're dead. Fear comes from the risk of catastrophic failure.

In any event, I agree that we need to keep looking at better ways to educate kids. I have a number of friends who are teachers, and one in particular is always trying new approaches to teaching - bending the rules whenever possible. That's good

Everyone needs the basic foundation stuff: basic math, language and socialization. After that, one can get more creative. I disagree with Ozzy about when kids are capable of making good choices about what to study, but in principle we're not that far apart - it's a difference of degree. Kuci's high school sounds like they're on to something with all the electives (mine was more restrictive).

Blake, as much as it's fun to daydream about working 16-20 hours a week, it's rather detached from reality, at least for the vast, vast majority of people (both the 1st world and outside of it). It's an unfortunate truth that school doubles as a form of daycare. There is a push around my area for full-time kindergarden, which is really just a blatant ploy to cut parents' daycare costs. It's not a good thing. I'm fortunate enough that if my wife and I do have kids, I will probably be able to stay home with them, and not need daycare.

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Some parents do pressure their kids too much. I don't know if anyone here had parents like that. I doubt that schools are responsible for that, but I could be wrong on a case by case basis.

Let me share from a perspective of a teacher at an at risk high school. My students didn't fear failing at all. I can promise you that. In fact many of them didn't think they were going to receive the grade of F even though I reported that to them as their grade. Why? Social promotion of course. Most teachers told them they were going to get a lower grade than they were actually going to give them. That was a huge problem for me, because I refused to do that.

Look, school is a ****ing joke right now the way it is. We need to show the kids we mean ****ing business. I had one student who turned in a paper with all capitalization and no punctuation. I refused to accept it. He told me Mr. Sucky Suck accepts papers like that. Well Mr. Sucky Suck came to me and told me to accept the paper because the kid tried. Bull**** the kid tried! That is not acceptable. Accepting that crap is ruining our kids. That's bull****.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Arrian


And when you have to deal with furriners, just yell louder in English

-Arrian

Ideally we would have a worldwide common language.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Ideally we would have a worldwide common language.

Oh God. Are you one of those new age ex-hippies or something?