Parents Say Students Forced To Learn Spanish

[-Jrabbit]

Ozzy, I've always tried to be supportive of your cause. I think it's a worthy debate -- one I've discussed at length with my daughter. I also understand that lobbyists routinely overstate their cases in order to enable a winning compromise.

But this is over the top. It promotes ignorance and indolence, and does a grave disservice to both your constituency and your credibility.

IMHO.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
... Why not teach the Mexicans to comprende ingles? What a concept.

That was the portion of the story which caught my eye. If true, it's unbelievable. If false, well then, we still shouldn't believe it.

[Blake]

Originally posted by snoopy369
[q="OzzyKP"]Schools don't prepare people for life. [/q]

Schools prepare people for life, not for work. Schools:
1. Teach you how to learn new things.
2. Teach you how to get along with others.
3. Teach you a range of subjects so you can choose what to continue.
4. Make sure you're not a complete idiot...

Not a complete idiot? Well, the schooling system will certainly ensure some bits are left missing...

[OzzyKP]

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Don't blame the concept of Education for boring kids. Blame the teachers and school systems who don't teach well or interestingly. School can, and should, be interesting and a great learning experience. Some people don't like it - most at that age - but the development you get from it is vital to being a functional adult.

Sorry, but this is wrong. The kids are the ones who need to be held accountable. They are the ones who need to step up. If it's boring too bad. They need to do it anyway.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Ozzy, I've always tried to be supportive of your cause. I think it's a worthy debate -- one I've discussed at length with my daughter. I also understand that lobbyists routinely overstate their cases in order to enable a winning compromise.

But this is over the top. It promotes ignorance and indolence, and does a grave disservice to both your constituency and your credibility.

IMHO.

This isn't ol' Ozzy spouting off a bunch of crap I've pulled out of my ass. This happens. Thousands of children grow up with far less schooling than even I am advocating here and not only are they not ignorant, they are generally far smarter and more balanced than many.

Yes, kids can even teach themselves to read without being forced into it.

But as usual, you guys have an extraordinarily dim view of youth. My cousin has always been extremely eager to learn and go to school. If you had given her the choice not much would have been different for her except she'd be a bit happier not having had to take a few classes they found frustrating and pointless. Even around 10 or so my one cousin was interested in medicine and being a doctor. Now she is a senior at UCLA about to graduate and go on to medical school.

When I was around 10 I wanted to be a writer. School however succeeded in making the whole activity frustrating and painful and my adult life is hindered greatly by the disservice school did me. Writing is no where near as easy or enjoyable for me today as it was when I was young, and while I am not a writer, writing is extremely important for what I do. If I was given a bit more freedom in my education, things could have turned out much better.

My third example is a high school student I currently tutor. He has made it through 10 years of school (both public and private). He is absolutely bored and frustrated by school. He struggles with simple concepts. All the basic skills you all maintain that school is supposed to teach, he never learned.

Better teachers aren't the answer.

He doesn't want to be there, he doesn't like it, he doesn't care, it is difficult and frustrating for him. He doesn't want his teachers and his peers to think he is dumb so it is better to just not try. He goofs off and causes trouble. This is a defense mechanism necessitated by the school atmosphere. A coping mechanism. School has created in him a fear of failure at the same time it demands of him things he is very likely to fail in. So he checks out.

Once again, better teachers aren't the answer. His parents are well off and sent him to various private schools, it doesn't make a difference.

School has failed him.

I know many, many of my friends growing up who were in the same situation. They went through school, they played the game, and it did nothing good for them.

So you have two situations. Either school is simply not right for these folks and they should be given the option of going into some kind of apprenticeship that can give them training in a field that interests them, or school is actually harmful to them and their prospects in life.

Bill Gates and other high profile individuals have begun to question the necessity and structure of our current school model.

Once again, far more radical methods of education than what I am here advocating have been tried and have succeeded stunningly. Even Montessori excels because it gives more choice and more freedom to students. And they start at like 3 or 4.

[Blake]

Originally posted by OzzyKP

"If you're not prepared to be wrong. You'll never come up with anything original... and by the time they get to be adults, most kids have lost that capacity... they have become frightened of being wrong... we stigmatize mistakes... and we're now running a national education system where mistakes are the worst thing you can make and the result is, we're educating people out of their creative capacities"


And that summarizes nicely, why if I were the supreme ruler of the world, the education system would suffer some.... changes.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
You know, I'd much less of a problem with it if they made a language mandatory, but oh hell no.

I agree. Learn all the languages you want to, but unite around a common language. Forcing everyone to learn two languages is an utter waste of time, and only creates confusion.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Because either they are crackheads or their parents are crackheads or both. They are too stupid to know what they have to learn and most of them don't give a ****.

That's the way it is. People have to go to work and do what they are told and they have to go to school and learn what the teacher says to learn.

Nice worldview.

No-one tells me what to do. But the school system didn't help me learn that positive mindset any. It took me way too many years to break free from the mindset of "I need to be told what to do" and to become free enough to do things like Better AI.

My one regret in life remains; not leaving school as soon as I could.

[Arrian]

I agree. Learn all the languages you want to, but unite around a common language. Forcing everyone to learn two languages is an utter waste of time, and only creates confusion.

And when you have to deal with furriners, just yell louder in English

-Arrian

[Arrian]

My third example is a high school student I currently tutor. He has made it through 10 years of school (both public and private). He is absolutely bored and frustrated by school. He struggles with simple concepts. All the basic skills you all maintain that school is supposed to teach, he never learned.

Could that be because he hasn't tried?

Better teachers aren't the answer.

He doesn't want to be there, he doesn't like it, he doesn't care, it is difficult and frustrating for him. He doesn't want his teachers and his peers to think he is dumb so it is better to just not try. He goofs off and causes trouble. This is a defense mechanism necessitated by the school atmosphere. A coping mechanism. School has created in him a fear of failure at the same time it demands of him things he is very likely to fail in. So he checks out.

So... yeah, he doesn't try. And, shocker! He doesn't learn anything. Maybe he *should* drop out...

Once again, better teachers aren't the answer. His parents are well off and sent him to various private schools, it doesn't make a difference.

School has failed him.

What, exactly, wouldn't have failed him?

-Arrian

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Blake


Nice worldview.

No-one tells me what to do. But the school system didn't help me learn that positive mindset any. It took me way too many years to break free from the mindset of "I need to be told what to do" and to become free enough to do things like Better AI.

My one regret in life remains; not leaving school as soon as I could.

I'm still struggling to overcome it.

I'm running an organization now. I am the boss. And thanks to my years in school it is very difficult for me. I remember my youth clear enough to remember I was far more of a self-starter when I was younger. I too wish I had left school much sooner than I did (after junior year in college).

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Blake


Nice worldview.

No-one tells me what to do. But the school system didn't help me learn that positive mindset any. It took me way too many years to break free from the mindset of "I need to be told what to do" and to become free enough to do things like Better AI.

My one regret in life remains; not leaving school as soon as I could.

I didn't say anything about teaching kids that they have to be told what to do, just that they do what they are told. That's the minimum. I'm talking about holding them accountable for not doing jack ****, which is what most of them do. I'm talking about not blaming the school system when the school system is already there and doing a good job. Just letting them do what ever the hell they want and blaming someone else for the results is ****.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


I'm still struggling to overcome it.

I'm running an organization now. I am the boss. And thanks to my years in school it is very difficult for me. I remember my youth clear enough to remember I was far more of a self-starter when I was younger. I too wish I had left school much sooner than I did (after junior year in college).

As someone who was a teacher I can promise you that most kids are not self-starters and it sure as well isn't the fault of the teachers. Those kids need a kick in the ass.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Arrian
I wouldn't be against less structure in the curriculum towards the end (high school). And indeed, there was some flexibility in mine - we did get to pick some electives. I'd be ok with looking at expanding that.

About 75% of my classes in the last 2 years of HS were electives. Overall, probably 50-60% were. It's a great system