No news on Israel-Palestine stuff?

[germanos]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
...
Modern wars are usually not allowed to be fully played out by the international community. There is almost never a clear victor, and the winning side is not allowed to take actions to consolidate his victory once major hostilities ended.
...

Siro, I think the Jews are the prime example that ancient ways have not been more effective in permanently subjecting the conquered

[Winston]

Originally posted by germanos

Modern wars are usually not allowed to be fully played out by the international community. There is almost never a clear victor, and the winning side is not allowed to take actions to consolidate his victory once major hostilities ended.

Siro, I think the Jews are the prime example that ancient ways have not been more effective in permanently subjecting the conquered

germanos, I think your mind works in quite disgusting ways.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Pekka
Well surely that was just a joke

I mean take Japan and US for example. It was a case of succesful operation after the war, but it was extremely intrusive. [...]

This doesn't apply to current situation. First of all, Japan was pretty much alone. Now, if you want ot do the same to an arab country, there's always a possibility of heated tensions outside the region that can have unpredictable following. [...]

You don't want to totally submit the other one and take their pride and culture away. THat's how enemies forever are made.

No, but you know what the US did to make the Japanese totally and utterly submit?
They used 2 nuclear weapons.

After that, the road was clear for setting up a new reality, and no Japanese fellow resisted.

Second of all, if Israel was fully unleashed on Palestine, I mean what kind of a fight is that? A modern army that is willing to go toe to toe against... what seems like bandits to me. So how do you do that exactly? HOw do you not piss off everyone in the process?

I don't know what a great solution is.

I do think that 2006 could have been won differently had we conquered Lebanon again, and killed off most Hezbullah activists, and only then retreated with the Lebanese army taking our place.

Thirdly, Palestinians are a people and currently dysfunctional body of the people in terms of authority and just order in general. You can't create a good base from that at the moment even if you could hand pick everyone. They would have no respect of the people anyway, so it won't work.

I agree with that, which is why I can't see a good way out of this conflict.

They are too torn up inside to deside.

So no. I don't see a fair fight solving the problem, and it wouldn't be a fair fight to begin with. So no Siro, you aren't allowed to go and kill bunch of people

Bummer

[Pekka]

Siro, oh, so you think it was such a huge success because of two a-bombs? Dude, get your head checked.

What would that do? I don't think it solves the problem of stable Palestine

[Sirotnikov]

However, I think that that, at historical point we are now, it will not be possible to make the clock go back and destroy Hamas and Fatah. It would have been interesting, if Israel wanted to separate herself from Gaza and West Bank, that the people in charge would have been the non-PLO local administration that Israel setup before the Oslo Teatry instead of Araft. That would have created a very different scenario, and, maybe, there would be peace right now.

I agree.
The Oslo process nurtured lots of dissatisfaction and hatred between both peoples.

Had Israel accepted the London agreement with King Hussein, I think we'd have seen the Palestinian problem solved.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Pekka
Siro, oh, so you think it was such a huge success because of two a-bombs? Dude, get your head checked.

What would that do? I don't think it solves the problem of stable Palestine

I'm totally not rooting for mass destruction. I support nation building as a chief primary way of resolving the effects of war.

But I do think the two a-bombs were a necessary enabling step. They alone allowed the US to re-build Japan in a different image. The Japanese, who are very tough and proud people, had absolutely no pockets of resistance and accepted that they had lost.

Had the US had some magnificent victory that would have struck fear in the hearts of Iraqis, then the Iraqi re-building would have looked very different.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by germanos
Siro, I think the Jews are the prime example that ancient ways have not been more effective in permanently subjecting the conquered

good point

[Pekka]

Yes. Let's not root for mass destruction, except in the name of peace, right?

[germanos]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

good point

[VetLegion]

When did the Greek Empire (what is that anyway? Empire of Alexander the Great?), the Byzantine Empire and the Soviet Union try to destroy the Jewish People?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by VetLegion
When did the Greek Empire (what is that anyway? Empire of Alexander the Great?), the Byzantine Empire and the Soviet Union try to destroy the Jewish People?

greek empire - antiouchus epiphanes fought a small jewish rebellion which sort of succeeded and gave us the holiday of hannuka,
the byzantine empire was quite nasty to jews
and the soviet union, starting with stalin's doctors' trials, started persecuting jews on the basis that they are capitalist and pro-nationalist (israel). the USSR then became radically anti-Israeli, and promoted anti-jewish sentiments as well.

[Sirotnikov]

It's september 2000 again...

the palestinian press agency began spouting nonsense about jews desecrating the temple mount by performing "talmudic rituals" and trying to enter the mount.

as far as I know this is nonsense, and even if someone performed some ceremony, it is most certainly not news worthy.

This is VERY very likely to stir outrage.

This is always a huge provocation and gets huge reactions from west bank muslims.

I remind you that almost all serious uprisings and clashes were fueled and provoked by temple-mount related propoganda, starting from 1929, and especially lately in 1996 and 2000.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by VetLegion
When did the Greek Empire (what is that anyway? Empire of Alexander the Great?), the Byzantine Empire and the Soviet Union try to destroy the Jewish People?

the most famous confrontation between Greeks and Jews was the Maccabean Revolt of 167-164 B.C.E. The Seleucid king Antiochus IV imposed Greek religious customs on the Jews and tried to convert the Jewish temple in Jerusalem into a temple to the Greek god, Zeus. The Jewish revolt, led by the Hasmonean Judas Maccabee, defeated the Seleucid armies and recaptured the temple. After the revolt, many Hellenized Jews left Judea and moved to Hellenistic commercial centers such as Alexandria and Antioch.

[VetLegion]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that the Soviet union tried to destroy the Jewish People. It persecuted, but it persecuted other people too. If Stalin wanted to get rid of Jews he would have moved them all to that Siberian oblast designated for them.

[Sirotnikov]

It persecuted, but it persecuted other people too. If Stalin wanted to get rid of Jews he would have moved them all to that Siberian oblast designated for them.

Some historians claim that he intended to do just that, but was killed before he had a chance to do it.