Iranian aggressors act aggressive to USN

[Patroklos]

It's no more home waters than the Straits of Gibraltar are British home waters.

Iran does, however, claim soverignty over them. That claim is recognized by exactly no one of course.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
It's no more home waters than the Straits of Gibraltar are British home waters.

A more apt comparison would be The British Channel. I'm sure the Royal Navy would pull off some pretty provocative excercises if, let's say, Argentian war ships were patrolling there at regular basis.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Iran does, however, claim soverignty over them. That claim is recognized by exactly no one of course.

Does it claim the whole thing up to the beaches of Oman? If not couldn't the claim be avoided simply by staying closer to Oman than Iran?

[Kuciwalker]

I doubt it. Why would they?

xpost

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Elok


The Cole was sneak-attacked while docked in a Yemen harbor, no? These fellows announced hostile intentions towards a mobile, armed opponent from 200m away. I don't know if they could get close enough to detonate effectively before being sunk by the ships' guns, or how quickly a boat can move when it's packed full of explosives. I have no naval experience, but they sound like different circumstances to me.

Um, you ever heard of the Spanish Armada? Remember how it was beaten by the smaller, faster and more maneuverable English ships? Now, it's a very different thing when they're powered ships and whatnot, but I imagine a couple of speedboats are probably faster in still water than a USN ship, particularly if it's not straight-line speed. Patrokolos or Lonestar could speak to what the amount of time it takes a USN DDG to turn about while heading in a particular direction at speed, but I imagine it's not a small amount of time... if the speedboats put something in their way of the explosive variety it might not be simple to evade.

[Kuciwalker]

Um, you ever heard of the Spanish Armada? Remember how it was beaten by the smaller, faster and more maneuverable English ships?

I don't think that's a very good comparison...

I imagine a couple of speedboats are probably faster in still water than a USN ship

... and I'm not sure that's true. Big ships have big engines.

[Reiko]

Should have just blasted the little bugs away then issued a warning to Iran. You get within 5km of our ships then to the bottom you go.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Patroklos


FYI, the broadside of a DDG is the following.

1 5" 54 caliber gun, now armed with KEAT (a shotgun type round filled with ball bearings)

8 .50 cal machine guns (16 if double mouted)

3 M60 machine guns

1 25mm chain gun

1 M79 grenade launcher.

1 automatic 40mm grenade launcher.

While I assume that sustained fire from even one of the machine guns would take care of a "speedboat" , there is part of me that wishes such a ship could mount a forward cannon of "WWII battleship" proportions.

I AM aware that there are probably dozens of reasons why these are impractical, unneccessary and probably even useless against a fast moving target but it sure could have a psycological impact to see that long gun point your way.

MOst of the armaments above seem designed to shred a target


OH and if I were a captain and shipping of a moderately unfriendly nation approached while uttering threats, I think a LITERAL shot across the bow would be warranted

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Um, you ever heard of the Spanish Armada? Remember how it was beaten by the smaller, faster and more maneuverable English ships?

I don't think that's a very good comparison...

I imagine a couple of speedboats are probably faster in still water than a USN ship

... and I'm not sure that's true. Big ships have big engines.

Big engines != faster turning speed (as I clarified later). They may have faster straight-line speeds, but maneuverability is lost...

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Reiko
Should have just blasted the little bugs away then issued a warning to Iran. You get within 5km of our ships then to the bottom you go.

While I understand the security concerns, the strait is what ?? 21 miles across at its narrowest so even drawing a 5 km circle around each of three ships that are probably somewhat spaced out to begin with . .. .

That could be quite an exclusion zone in some pretty congested waters

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Isn't the Hormuz Straight Iranian home waters, so the real provoker is the US, simply by being there?

NO the US is provoking them by simply existing as a non-Islamic nation state


Seriously though . . Why would any nation acede to a claim just because someone claimed it. AS a guess, I would say that the USN probably does not travel very very close to Iran as why would any captain intentionally put his ship within easier range of all the ground-based weaponary that may or may not be there. Common sense says they are probably in the same chanell that every other nation with shipping travels freely.

[Reiko]

Originally posted by Flubber


While I understand the security concerns, the strait is what ?? 21 miles across at its narrowest so even drawing a 5 km circle around each of three ships that are probably somewhat spaced out to begin with . .. .

That could be quite an exclusion zone in some pretty congested waters

I understand it is international waters and it get really narrow in the straight but since Iran is going to play these games then the USN is better off making such a large exclusion zone just for them.

[Patroklos]

Does it claim the whole thing up to the beaches of Oman? If not couldn't the claim be avoided simply by staying closer to Oman than Iran?

Iran actuall owns a sliver of land on the Oman side and a few islands throughout the straights. They claim this gives them jurisdiction over the whole thing, but like others have pointed out about the Striaghts of Gibralter/Engish Channel/etc. when waters narrow the normal 12nm territorial water claim doesn't apply. The straights are international waters.

Um, you ever heard of the Spanish Armada? Remember how it was beaten by the smaller, faster and more maneuverable English ships?

Rapid fire machine guns on swiveling turrets solved this

Now, it's a very different thing when they're powered ships and whatnot, but I imagine a couple of speedboats are probably faster in still water than a USN ship, particularly if it's not straight-line speed. Patrokolos or Lonestar could speak to what the amount of time it takes a USN DDG to turn about while heading in a particular direction at speed, but I imagine it's not a small amount of time... if the speedboats put something in their way of the explosive variety it might not be simple to evade.

Our ships are not as slow as you think. They are not as fast as speed boats, but they are not helpless. And like I said as soon as there is any sea state higher than 1 the speed of those boats is useless, they can't barrel at40kts while jubping 20 ft in the air without destroying themselves. Big ships don't care about sea states of that level.

As far as turning of course they turn faster, but our tactical turning radius is no what you think. I can't tell you want it is, but you would be suprised. Remember that newer vesses (DDGs) have variable pitch props, that means I can change the direction of the force withouth having to stop the shaft and then start it rotating in the opposite directing, we just alter the pitch of the blades on the prop. This mean we can twist while turning, or go reverse bell on the inboard engine and flank on the outboard. That takes away speed, but you turn faster and allows you to unmask batteries in seconds.

Also, our biggest advantage (besides 5" shotgun shells) is our wake. Just like waves stop speedboats cold, a 8-12 foot wall of water does the trick as well. You turn back on your wake, putting the small boats on the opposite side, and you have a ready made defense. They can either slow down and cross it putting making themselves sitting ducks as they are now almost stopped and facing a full broadside or they can go around it, which takes them time. And of course we are shooting at them while all of this is happening.

Should have just blasted the little bugs away then issued a warning to Iran. You get within 5km of our ships then to the bottom you go.

Its just not possible. For one the striaghts are only 21 miles wide at one point. But that isn't 21 miles of space open for navigation. The channels are much smaller.

And like I said earlier, we are not at war with Iran, they can use that channel as much as they want. Unless they do something that proves hostile intent they can do what they want. Simply closing us in and of itself is not the case. They have major naval bases in the SOH, we are going to be in close proximity. That said, 200 yards and that radio message would have caused me to put some rounds down range, and it looks like the CO of the USS Hopper had the same idea.

The Iranians are counting on our ROE to gain an advantage. We are not at war with Iran, so they get the benefit of the doubt unfortunetly.

While I assume that sustained fire from even one of the machine guns would take care of a "speedboat" , there is part of me that wishes such a ship could mount a forward cannon of "WWII battleship" proportions.

I AM aware that there are probably dozens of reasons why these are impractical, unneccessary and probably even useless against a fast moving target but it sure could have a psycological impact to see that long gun point your way.

I feel the same way. Not that we need 16 inch type guns, but a few 40mm turrets wouldn't hurt anything. We used to have thousands of these in teh fleet in WWII. Basic, rugged, effective.

Militaries suffer from a forgetfulness of the basics sometimes. First we have simple and cheap weapon A, then we design complex and expensive weapon B to counter A, so we discontinue weapon A. Then someone designs more complex and more expensive weapon C to counter weapon B, but not A becasue no one uses it anymore. Weapon B goes away. So when someone reintroduces weapon A, as cheap and inexpenisve as it is, weapon C even with its complexity and price tag, is not designed to handel it.

[Asher]

Wow. Imagine if the world fired on US ships every time they were aggressive.

[Patroklos]

Care to provide an example?